Origins and the Zombies Timeline Explained

[Shooter]

"My name is Samantha, and I'm going to tell you how this all really began." - Samantha Maxis. Origins.

My name is Shooter, and I'm going to do my best to tell you what's really going on with Origins and the Zombies storyline.

To understand what has happened during Origins and the Zombies timeline, we must first understand Mob of the Dead. As we're all aware, Mob of the Dead is the first time we're introduced to this idea of a cycle in Zombies, and this concept of a cycle is very important. Let's go back to Alcatraz.
When we first start the map, the four mobsters are in their cells while Ferguson is patrolling the cell block. The Weasel tricks Ferguson into entering his cell, and after he does Al kills Ferguson. Then the prison is altered to a Hellish new form, zombies start storming the prison, and the four must fight for their lives and build a plane to escape the island.

However, while progressing through the Easter Egg on MotD, we learn from Ferguson that what we see in the beginning cut scene did not actually happen. We learn that the plane was never built, Al was murdered that night on New Years Eve 1934, and Ferguson lived a long life and worked at the prison until 1942. So which one was reality?

The story told by Ferguson during the Easter Egg is reality. The plane was never built and Al died on the roof. The map we play in is us repeating the cycle of events that night in a state of "Purgatory", ultimately dying in the end and continuously repeating the cycle. So what is the point of doing the Easter Egg if they're just going to end up dead in reality? It is because we are CHANGING the reality of what happened that night when we break the cycle. Through the events of the Easter Egg, we repeat what happened that night to actually rewrite history and the outcome of that night. We went back to the night of Al's death, and instead changed what happens so that history itself plays out differently. Instead of Al dying on the roof and Ferguson living, Al lives and Ferguson dies that night. The original reality has now been rewritten, and time will continue as is. Al goes on to live and publish his comic book that we see in the loading screens.

So the point of the "cycle": to go back to a point in time and do things differently than what originally had occured (reality), breaking the cycle of original events and rewriting history as a result. This is what happened with Mob of the Dead. Now let's apply the same logic from MotD to our story and Origins. There is an original reality, and there is us going back to a point in time and doing things differently in order to rewrite history (break the cycle).

The original reality is the reality as we know it. Let's take a brief overview:

*Note: The date for Moon, NTZ and Tranzit is subject to change.

1918 - Excavation Site 64. Northern France. Group 935 members Maxis and Richtofen lead the investigation for 115 at the Excavation Site. 115 is found and members began to turn. Allies Forces begin to move in on the base. Richtofen leaves with Maxis before capture, O4 never meet.
1933 - MotD occurs.
1935-1939 - Some time during this Samantha is born. 115 testing is done by Maxis and Richtofen, testing of prototype MTD begins.
1939 - Group 935 begins again after receiving funding from Nazi Party. More 115 is acquired and the MTD prototype is completed.
1945 - Samantha and Maxis betrayed by Richtofen at Der Riese. Sam enters pyramid (Aether), Maxis sent to an unknown tunnel. NDU - Der Riese occur. Maxis teleported to Griffin Station by Schuster and Groph so he can get his daughter out of the pyramid. It doesn't work, and Maxis is killed. After he dies, Maxis' soul travels to Aether where he's reunited with Sam.
1963-2012 - Kino through Moon occur. Richtofen travels through time to get the Focusing Stone and Golden Rod in order to take Samantha place in Aether while Samantha tries to stop them.
End of Moon - Richtofen takes Sam's place in Aether and now controls the zombies. Tank, Takeo, and Nikolai are killed at Griffin Station, Samantha goes to Agartha and is trapped there. Maxis blows up Earth as a last ditch effort to cut off Richtofen from getting the Earth's ethereal energy and taking full power in Aether. NTZ occurs.

This is when the O3's souls travel back to the night this all began, in the Purgatory version of 1918 France. They enter their old bodies and are forced to repeat a cycle of events until something can be changed.

Here is a link to a basic timeline with the events (couldn't get the image to post): http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=fc2wea&s=8#.Uwlxj8KYaM8

 

Edit: Hells Warrrior - image fixed

 

As the O3 are repeating the cycle, Richtofen's soul is now in charge of Aether, and can travel forward or backward in time as he chooses. Maxis is left powerless in Aether as his daughter is now gone and he has no one left to help him. Richtofen chooses to go decades forward in time to a point where survivors were emerging from the blast, and was able to get through to Stulinger (because he had been eating zombie flesh aka 115) at Green Run. Maxis also contacts the N4 at the site in Washington.

This is where the story splits, and depending on who is helped, their fate, and the story itself, is ultimately set in stone.

Richtofen - If all three towers are built for Richtofen, he regains power in Aether and now has the ability to reenter a human body from his position in Aether. With this accomplished Richtofen has all the ethereal energy needed and humanity's fate is sealed. The world is now Richtofen's play thing and Maxis will simply "cease to exist".

If Richtofen is helped, the original reality continues and history is written as is, with Richtofen ruling the world for eternity.


Maxis - If all three towers are built for Maxis and he receives the energy, he uses it to kick Richtofen out of the controller seat in Aether and take his place. After doing this, he places Richtofen's soul in a zombies body and forces him to live out a well deserved fate. He then uses the newfound energy in Aether to go back to a point in time to 1918 France, where he first learned of the gateway to Agartha and Samantha at Excavation Site 64.

If Maxis is helped, we go back to the night of Origins in 1918 in an attempt to free Samantha, and break the cycle of original events and rewrite history.

So you see, Origins is simply us going back in time to 1918, to where the O3 have been repeating their cycle, and rewrite the events of that night and break the cycle. Instead of Richtofen escaping with Maxis and the O4 never meeting (ultimately leading to Richtofen taking power), the O4 do meet and Maxis is instead transferred into a drone.

This however would have created a paradox. If Maxis rewrites the original history from 1918 on, and doesn't end up in his repalcement body (like the first time) , Samantha would no longer be born in the 1930's. This would also possibly alter the future of the O3 as well. Maxis resolves this by [insert theory here]

Haha, not what you expected I know. I am currently bouncing around three different possibilities for how he solved this, and am not set in stone on any as of yet. Below I'll provide one ideas that's been floating around.

Instead of completing the change of events that night, Maxis teleports the O4 to a different part of the timeline. With Sam by his side, he teleports the O4 back to 1942, before all the time traveling had begun, and placed Tank, Takeo, and Nikolai. Sam is placed back in her 8 year old But one thing is different this time around. Edward is placed into a body of a young boy instead of his original adult body.

The cycle has now been broken, as the original reality is now being rewritten from 1942. But this still poses a problem. If we only rewrite history from 1942 on, the zombie outbreak may still occur, which it does. Luckily though , Maxis has a plan to stop the zombie outbreak once and for all, with the help of three unlikely soldiers.

So there we have it. Origins solved, right? Well not quite.

While it answers the main idea of what's going on with Origins, the specifics behind it are much more blurred. The most important thing to focus on is the turning point at which the change occurs from the original 1918 Excavation Site 64 and the Origins 1918 Excavation Site 64. With MotD it was easy to identify the turning point, we saw it right in the opening cutscene. When Al kills Ferguson, the change occurs as the prison is transformed to it's hellish state. The turning point was easy to identify during MotD, unlike Origin's turning point.

We are certain that three things did not occur in the original 1918: the O4 meeting, maxis being put into a drone, and Samantha being stuck in Agartha. Everything else is debatable on whether it occured in the original reality or not. Origins' quotes, radios, and notes have provided quite a bit of info on how much actually occured the first time, but again it's still open for debate.





Now let's get the discussion going once again. I've got a lot more to touch on!
Shooter


The ideas for this thread began awhile ago, but it was a recent discussion on the forums that sparked it up again and made me want to write this. For discussion sake I will provide the discussion and the response I was preparing for deciding to write this thread.

So you're saying every time we go back in time a new branch is being made from the original timeline? But it's still the one timeline we're looking at with multiple branches yes? I guess that's what I'm trying to say. I'm not saying it's a traditional set timeline, it's obvious it can't be considering the backward time travel taking place. I'm no expert on the complexities of time travel and the physics behind it, so call it a branching timeline, pre-destined timeline, whatever. Lol clearly I'm not good with the technical terms. Whatever the name is of the timeline we're dealing with is not really my concern anyways, since in the end we're following the events of the time traveler. All I know are the events occur in this specific order.


- 1918 Original Origins - Tank, Tak, and Niko never meet, Maxis brain is transferred to new younger body, Maxis and Richtofen live.
- Mid-late 1930's Maxis has a child named Samantha
- 1939 Group 935 is reformed by Maxis and Richtofen and continue working on `115
- 1945 NDU-Der Riese. Richtofen betrays Maxis and Sam, Sam gets into Aether
- Kino - Moon. Richtofen works to get Sam out of Aether and put himself in.
- World blows up at the end of Moon. Richtofen takes control of Aether, Samantha is sent to Agartha
- Green Run - Buried. New 4 build towers to give Maxis power. Maxis gains control of Aether from Richtofen.
- 1918 New Origins. Maxis travels back to the original 1918, but this time things happen differently. Tank Tak and Niko meet, Maxis brain is placed in a jar because Richtofen didn't have time to finish the operation like he did in the original 1918 Origins. Samantha is released from Agartha. This created a paradox though, since history being rewritten from 1918 would mean Maxis never gets his new body and Samantha is never born. Maxis says he fixes the paradox at the end of the EE, and the last thing we're left with is a cutscene from the 1940's.

It's important to note that there are two different 1918 Origins. One is the original events, and the other is us rewriting the original events by going back to a point in time in the original events and
doing something different. It's exactly like Mob of the Dead when you think about.

Interesting. I was uncertain myself as to whether or not an original 1918 event occured at all.

What makes you believe so?

[because I'm dying to give another answer to this although it was directed towards Shooter (who is free to kill me as he pleases).]

The 1918 excavation mission is more than likely set in stone regardless how much you try to flop the timeline around. As Shooter said, there are two positions that include that objective - (1) where Group 935 set themselves up in Northern France and eventually found 115 + the Ancient ruins, and (2) the organization is swarmed by the undead which brings in four unlikely soldiers to fight together and open the gateway to Agartha.

There is no designated evidence in any past maps that recall excavations in Northern France. We know that 115 has been available on Earth since 1908 ala Tunguska event. That alone gives us some confidence in the possibility of even unearthing Element 115 by then.

But I must confess in that all this hype, there is one small problem - the powers of 115. According to the Origins that we play in, Group 935 unearthed the element and used it to create machines powerful enough to captivate the entire area. Think about it: giant patrol robots, Panzer Soldats, the upbringing of the Mystery Box through discovery of 115's distortion of time and space, the Pack-a-Punch machine (yes, it is related outside game mechanics as Richtofen even goes as far as explaining the origins of it and what it can be after building it). Had the Germans harnessed 115's abilities in reality, would they have not won World War I?

That leads me to think that while Group 935 did start their excavation in Northern France, the reality was that they were unsuccessful in discovering Element 115 along with the Ancient Ruins. Thus, they did not have the power to push back the Allies and lost the war in 1918. I'm positive that finding the element would lead to the same result of obtaining such vivacious power beyond their wildest dreams. Sad to say, they didn't.

Tl;dr: The 1918 excavation did occur, but only to a certain extent. It isn't until Samantha's existence within Agartha that the event is distorted into a new timeline and result.

I just thought it more likely myself that Germany, and the world, was largely unaware of that entire ruin with WW1 going on and such, but Samantha warped things enough to lead Maxis there, and the other 3 warriors.

I mean, Samantha could have had a sunconscious influence on Maxis well before 1918, possibly even starting after the initial exposure at Tunguska. The resulting coincidence of the other three appearing, I would assume is also Samantha's doing. As much as she probably didn't care for the idea of Richtofen being involved, it was only a minor concern as she knew that this Richtofen wouldn't recognize her fully (although he makes some rather ominous quotes about that very subject) and therefore wouldn't impede her goals. She just wants to be with her Dad again. So she influenced these world leaders, Japan's Emperor, and the military leaders in USA and Russia, to send the three best zombie fighters she knew of to France to protect her father after she realized that there was something else involved in the area.
The ancient evil, which I believe may somehow be Richtofen-led zombies. Somehow, our actual O4 went back in the past of that timeline, and Richtofen chased them there, which inspired the ruins to be built and left all these ancient zombies around. I don't think they are actively controlled by a Richtofen at that time, because no matter which way you spin the story, Richtofen ends up stuck, either in Samuel's body, or the random zombie's body. Even at "full power" he still gets stuck. He just isn't equiped to control the aether.


So short version: The ruins at 1918 were never visited, and possibly didn't even exist, until the aether gods warped the timeline.

However that's how I always looked at it. If there is reason to believe that it did happen the first time around, I'd gladly take a look.

It just seems unlikely too me, as the main chamber of the ruins is dedicated to the O4, and that just wouldn't fit without some timeline warping happening. But then there would be an aether god present pre-Moon incident, and I'd think he/she would have tried harder to defend the MPD from intrusion in that event.

One could argue that the O4 statues were only there the second time around, sure, but then I have probably just as much weight in saying that the whole ruins only existed the second time around.

And the response I was making:

Let's reestablish what we're trying to accomplish in Origins: we're trying to free Samantha from Agartha. As we recall, we did not start time traveling and Samantha did not enter Aether (and later Agartha) until 1940-1945, so the original 1918 event did not include Samantha's influence on Maxis whatsoever, we know that. And we also have to remember that Samantha enters Agartha AFTER being kicked out of Aether, so any possibility of her being the one manipulating all of this gone as she no longer had the power to do so. Those are the basics.

[tab][/tab]If we go back to Buried, it was actually Maxis himself who had just gained full control of Aether and had the power to manipulate time and space to his advantage. That was the whole reason for all the towers in BO2. To give Maxis the ethereal energy to take Richtofen's position as controller, so he could go back in time to the point where he first learned of the gateway and free Samantha. It is much more likely that it was actually Maxis manipulating things.

And as far as there being no evidence from previous maps that the Excavation Site existed, that is true. But there's also a lot to support that 115 and testing of the MTD prototype occurred well before 1939 and Der Riese. If you recall the earliest dated radio (radio 1 from Moon I believe) dated December 4 1939, it mentions that the test they are performing is test 151, suggesting tests with 115 occurred well before Der Riese. Maxis also has a diary that mentions that their MTD tests at the "new site" have been unsuccessful, indicating a previous site had existed before Der Riese in which they were experimenting with 115.

Also, consider the blueprint of the 115 Extraction Drill found on the wall in the Laboratory on Origins. This drill is the same one we see in the Nuketown Zombies loading screen in Nevada. Now we all know the Americans had a "large supply of the element at their Nevada base", but we never knew how they acquired the 115. We'll if I had to bet, I'd say the Americans (as a part of the Allies) seized the blueprints after capturing the Excavation Site and built the drill somewhere on the Nevada Test Site.

There's certainly some evidence to support than an original 1918 event did occur that involved Maxis, Richtofen, Group 935, 115 and the ancient ruins. Not to mention, it's a much more logical assumption. Is it possible that some random mysterious Aether god manipulated all of this in some alternate dimension for unknown reasons? Sure. But is it not much more logical to think that a majority of these things existed in the original 1918? And that Maxis was simply teleporting back to that point in time just like Mob of the Dead.

Infest brings up a great point. If the Germans had such tremendous power with 115, how come they lost the war?

1. The discovery and advancements came too late. Quotes from Richtofen on Origins indicate that many of the machines and devices were still in the prototype stage. Both the tank and giant robots were still in their prototype stage, as indicated by quotes about the tank's overheating problems and robot's problems with the velocity compensators.

2. The ancient evil took over the base, stopping all work from being finished and sent to the front lines.

Edited February 23, 2014 by Hells Warrrior
image added

[Naitrax]

Great, great read Shooter.

I may not agree with it entirely (but it's definitely altered my view), but I think you've really hit the nail on the head with this.
However, I have one problem. How did Sam get from Moon to Agartha? If she somehow was transported there after she died, how come the other 3 didn't travel to Agartha as well? There is no possible way that Richtofen would let Sam enter Agartha after all that, so she must have found another way to get there. I just can't think that the Moon crew died there without doing some unknown thing. Possibly, with all the technology located on the Moon, Sam/Maxis found a way to harness the power of the 115 Excavation Drill from Nuketown, because we know that Nuketown's loading screen takes place at the same time as Moon's, so that could be possible.

 

Anyway, great job as always.

[swappingspit]

Very good, very well thought out. 

 

The problem I have with it, in addition to what Naitrax pointed out, is that Maxis's stated goal at the end of Buried was to reach Agartha and destroy Earth and all life on it. I'm not sold on him trying to go back to Origins to rewrite history.

[ETEl2NAL407]

This is the closest anyone has come to actually explaining this properly. Here's where I think you're wrong. 

 

The O4 always meet up, the turn happens in game. Whether or not you free Samantha. If you don't, the cycle begins after that, but the O3's memories are wiped no doubt and RIchtofen reinserts Maxis into his body so Samantha can be born naturally. Maybe Richtofen even selectively erases portions of Maxis' memory too.

 

Brains to you Shooter. Great job.

[MegaAfroMan]

Again, you and I have different views on the linearity of time.

You bring up Samantha's inability to be born after the cycle is broken as a paradox, but I don't see it that way. Samantha doesn't need to be born the second time around. She was born the first time around.

The way I look at time travel is from a branching realities viewpoint. Everytime, every single time, anyone went back in time, it created a new branch. You could NEVER change your personal history.

If you went back and time and killed your grandfather, you wouldn't fade out of existence, instead you'd just ensure that an ALTERNATE you wouldn't be born. The homocidal you is still very much alive.

With that in mind, it doesn't matter than time travel didn't happen until the late 40's. Once the box is open, everything is subject.

Just as well, Samatha was an omnipotent being who could travel through time at will.

There is no reason she couldn't have escaped to the past and created a new branch of history.

I still think it's more logical to say that the 1918 excavation either never happened, or was highly unsuccessful. If I had to choose, I'd say the alatter.

I think the O4 never met, in fact I'd be willing to go so far to say it is unlikely any of them, let alone all of them (except Richtofen), would have even been sent there.

I'll try to sit down and write out my views in a more properly written format soon. Maybe then you can either show me where I'm mistaken, orI can show you. Either way, it's a win.

[Shooter]

Thanks for all the feedback guys! Keep it coming!

@Nai

Great question.

We know from quotes from Black Ops that the souls of the O4 and other characters travel to Aether when they go down or die. This was due to their bodies being exposed to 115. So it's likely to assume this same thing happened at the end of Moon. So the question is why wouldn't Sam go there like the other three? It all really comes down to the relation that Aether's energy and Agartha share. We know from Buried's Easter Egg quotes that Maxis needed full control of Aether's energy to open the gateway to Agartha, so I'd like to assume there's a strong relation between the two.

My best guess would be that the energy her soul received while in Aether was still reminiscent when she was killed, and it forced her to a different fate than the others. It's really hard to say, but I'd have to bet it had something to do with the time she spent in Aether. Also, remember that Agartha is not where Sam wants to be. She is trapped there, and apparently scared for her life according to her quotes. I don't think she intended to go there, but was forced there. Still unclear though.


@swappingspit

Maxis stated goal at the end of Buried was to release Samantha from Agartha, and that Earth and it's people would not survive. It was a side effect, not his intentions. Same for Origins: he went back to free his daughter, with the side effect being he rewrites history. It's always been about his daughter.

 

@mega

I understand your theory on branching timelines whe we we go back in time and I don't necessarily disagree. But let's consider how many times we actually go back in time during the Zombies timeline.

SNN to DR - forward
DR to Ascension - forward
Ascension to COTD - forward
COTD to SL - unknown
SL to Moon - unknown
Moon to Tranzit - forward
Tranzit to Die Rise - forward
Die rise to Buried - forward
MOTD - backwards
Origins - backwards

Throughout Zombies, we have only received quotes from Richtofen about traveling forward in time. Kino, Call of the Dead, Die Rise it's always forward time travel.There is actually one map we do go back in time besides the last two I mentioned, and that's Shangri La. During the events of the Easter Egg, we help Brock and Gary by going back in time and freeing them from the temple. The events we do in the past actual CHANGE our history, helping Brock and Gary escape and allowing Richtofen to then access the Focusing Stone when we return to present day at the end of the eclipse. So I'm not entirely sold that we can't go back to a point on our timeline in the past, make changes, and change history as we know it.

There are other hints that we have changed history itself throughout Zombies, like Buried's achievement Revisionist Historian (In Buried, rewrite history). When you throw a Time Bomb down and after a few rounds detonate it, you are brought back to the past to rewrite the history of the last few rounds.

As you already know, a paradox will occur whenever we travel back in time. There are many ways of solving a temporal paradox, and branching timelines/realities is one of them, like you stated. But it is not the only viable option. There are also things like Novikov self consistency principle (pre destined timeline) and a corrupted/displaced timeline (aka the butterfly effect) among others.

Now I'm not against the idea of a branching timeline being created at the point we go back to 1918, but I do believe this is only a temporary tangent. I personally don't believe both realities can continue to exist. It's a lot similar to what occurs in the Back to the Future movies.
When Marty goes back in time to 1955, he accidentally stops his parents from meeting how they did originally. As a result, he and his siblings begin to disappear from existence. Marty eventually gets his parents to kiss before he fades completely, ensuring he is still born. But when he goes back to 1985, there are noticeable changes in the present because of what he had done in the past.

I'm more a fan of the Replacement Theory when it comes to our timeline in Zombies.

While scientists debate whether fixed time or parallel dimensions better explain time travel, most stories use some variant of Replacement Theory. According to replacement theory, if you travel to the past you arrive in your own past, and what you do within that past may have consequences to your own future and the future of the universe. Thus you can change history and impact your own existence, but the consequence is that you can change history and impact your own existence.

Under replacement theory, it is assumed that no one can arrive in the past before he departs from the future, in a sequential sense; and that this sequential sequence is tied in the original history to temporal sequence. This means that there is always an original history, a version of events in which no one and nothing arrives from the future because the future has not yet been reached. The time traveler departing from the future then arrives in the past and alters that original history, in essence erasing it and replacing it with a new version.

It just seems more likely that we are able to rewrite history of a fixed timeline based on the in game evidence that supports it. This eliminates a need for alternate timelines or realities.

Also, I'm not sold on the idea of Samantha being this omnipotent being that could travel through time once she was removed from Aether. The logic just doesn't make sense. Following the events sequentially, Samantha would never need to go back to 1918 to contact her future father until she was kicked out of Aether and into Agartha by Richtofen. And it was clear that once Samantha was kicked out of Aether and entered Agartha ,she lost the powers she possessed as controller. All this power yet she couldn't escape Agartha? And has for her being able to create this whole other history, I'm not buying it. It goes against everything that the controller of Aether can do. The capabilities of the controller in Aether are clear: they can travel through time and space at will, however they cannot physically alter our world from Aether. They can only influence people on Earth to do their biddings for them, or enter a physical body to do it themselves. I know Samantha was a powerful ruler in Aether, but I don't think anyone in Aether would have the capability. Just goes against a lot of the logic. If Samantha or Maxis could just create history with that power, why wouldn't they have just created a history where none of this stuff never happened.

Ultimately, I think Samantha was literally just a Little Lost Girl.

This is why I say that Origins occurred originally to an extent. All of these things could not simply be physically created by the Controller, as I don't see how they have that power.

As I said in the OP, there are some obvious things we know did not occur the first time, and other things that are very unclear. Determining exactly what's what is going to be the hard part.
 

@Eternal

Thanks for the feedback. Randomly enough I've actually read quite a few ideas of yours and like what you have to say. You tend to keep common sense and keeping things simple in mind when delving into the complexity of the storyline. And you've brought up a great point I'll have to consider.

thanks again.

[PINNAZ]

(Warning - I'm going to go all over the place with this post)

 

 

Another intriguing post from you Shooter. I see you have really tried to flesh out a 'easy' to follow narrative. You make so many good points in which I wholeheartedly agree though.

 

 

I myself haven't tried to think too much of the story timeline for Black Ops 2 as it just does my head in & if I think about it my brain would explode. Every different way I can dream up, there is a flaw somewhere, so I have just given up. Though I'm left with the same thinking as MegaAfroMan. Multiple Paradoxes must exist. But if you effect something in one timeline, maybe that has an effect in another which cannot be changed, it just opens a up endless possibilities. Or maybe it is like Groundhog day & you can repeat an event with multiple outcomes but only one is reality? 

 

I like the Replacement Theory too.

 

 

One thing I have always held onto is that the Zombie Story is "Viewing Images from the Past" as stated in the 'Project Nova" Intel from Black Ops. I still think that the ending will somehow involve this. It's right there, talking directly about Die Glocke & Time Travel.

 

 

I'm so glad you brought this next part up because it may be a complete link to what is happening. 

 

 

When Marty goes back in time to 1955, he accidentally stops his parents from meeting how they did originally. As a result, he and his siblings begin to disappear from existence. Marty eventually gets his parents to kiss before he fades completely, ensuring he is still born. But when he goes back to 1985, there are noticeable changes in the present because of what he had done in the past.

 

 

What I have posted below is not necessarily about the Time-travel consequences but more to do with the song that is played during the scene. See if you can hear the similarities to a song used in Zombies. What song is it?

 

 

Earth Angel - Back to the Future Scene

 

 

 

 

The song used in the scene is called Earth Angel by The Penguins which was released in 1954. Here is the recorded version.

 

 

Earth Angel - The Penguins (1954)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_Angel

 

 

"Earth Angel (Will You Be Mine)" is an American doo-wop song, originally released by The Penguins in 1954

 

 

 

 

Sound familiar yet? Here is the Tranzit Loading screen music.

 

 

Tranzit Loading Screen Music "Lovesong for the Damned"

 

 

 

 

Change of topic ~

 

 

Mob of the Dead is the first time we're introduced to this idea of a cycle in Zombies, and this concept of a cycle is very important.

 

I have been playing Shangri-La lately & going through the quotes. I think Shangri-La gives a massive hint that there are cycles & as you said, it is the only map that travelling back in time actually occurs. But it is still a cycle. When Richtofen collects the Focusing Stone, you can activate the radio & Brock & Gary relive their events over & over again. One big cycle!

 

 

Quote from Takeo (Shangri-La)

 

 

 

 

This next quote from Richtofen sums up how I feel about the Time Paradox's in the Zombie Story

 

 

 

 

 

Another change of topic ~

 

One of my favorite things of Black Ops 2 is the Nuketown Loading Screen Comic Book. I was so excited when I saw the "115 Extraction Drill" on the wall of Origins.  

 

As you said Shooter, Der Riese told us that the "Americans have a large supply of Element 115 at the Nevada Base", did the Blueprints for the 115 Extractrion Drill fall into American hands? How does this invention end up in Nuketown in possibly a completely different time? And why is it now attached to a GIANT UFO?

 

 

 

On a different note, maybe Origins in particular is the Maxis Version of what occurs if he takes control. Maybe in the next game there will be a map which explains Richtofens version of the story?

 

 

As you can see by my post being all over the place, this is why I don't try to figure out the timeline for myself. Sorry for going off-topic in your thread Shooter, you just make me think about so many things.

 

 

Brains to you Shooter. I hope you have a few more epic threads left in you!

[ETEl2NAL407]

I don't think we're travelling back in time for Origins or MotD, we're just being shown what happened. A Flashback.

 

So, If we assume that time travel only occurs during in-game, we can have this timeline.

 

Origins

MotD

NDU

Verruckt

SNN

Der Riese

KDT

Ascension

CotD

SRL

Moon

NTZ

GR

GLF

Buried

 

I also don't think Treyarch left large holes in regards to time travel. This is why I don't think travel into the past is actually ever achieved. Apart from SRL, when it happens at this mystical temple. The MDT is not capable of travelling backwards through time, only forward, so our O4 never travel back in time. Origins, is not the result of time travel...It's what happened back then. At that point, the O4 have never met and the battle between Maxis and RIchtofen has not begun. In the opening cutscene, the O4 do meet and due to the battle happening around them are forced to work together and survive. If you heed the calls of this Lost Little Girl, you're changing history because she is affecting it from the future much the same way the mystical energies of SRL allowed the O4 to travel back in time and help Brock and Gary. 

 

There is no evidence that we ever travel backwards in time except for that. 

[Cheesegrater28]

Good post. While I enjoyed the read and it made me think of things in a different way, I wanted to offer my theory since I also think understanding MotD leads you to understand what’s going on in Origins. One thing you were wrong about is that MotD isn’t the first cycle we’ve encountered. Shangri La was. Brock and Gary were stuck there reliving the same moments over and over. Even after we’ve helped them all the way to the pyramid, they still restart their loop, as if they didn’t complete the steps to break the cycle like the Weasel does.

 

After MotD came out, it made me rethink Shangri La. What if we never went back in time, but rather when we triggered the eclipse, we entered Argatha. Shangri La is supposed to be the gateway to Argatha and once we activate the columns, we clearly are somewhere different since the surroundings change and there is a giant meteor stuck in place. So what if this is the dimension of Argatha and that is what the eclipse represents. We had one at Der Riese as well, which could be symbolism since Maxis was trying to enter Argatha through his experiments there. The next time we see the eclipse is at the end of Origins. Samantha keeps telling us during Origins, to open the gateways to Argatha and then help free her. When we finally “open the gateway”, we are greeted with an odd cutscene and the eclipse in the background. So what if this is Argatha and it’s a place Maxis has made for himself? Its back at their home with his daughter and a child version of Richtofen. In some of the messages, he talks about Richtofen like he was the son he never had.

 

But then whats actually going on in Origns? In MotD, we know the inmates died and were then stuck in this cycle. We also know from the recordings, that time has continued on with them stuck there, since Ferguson recorded it after he retired. So while they redo the same events over and over, time is still continuing on. That’s why Weasel keeps adding to his notes and lists. Well what if the MotD we play actually takes place after Moon? Same thing with Origins. What if the old crew with Sam died after Moon and got stuck in a nightmarish place. Both maps make references to Gods and the afterlife. MotD has an Afterlife mode and Origins has a Zombie Blood mode. And Origins references Afterlife and Inferno in some of its messages. Sam also says something about not knowing how long they were trapped there. So Dempsey, Takeo, Nikolai, and maybe even Sam could have been stuck there after they died or teleported there from Moon. Then when Maxis’ ending for Buried happens, he enters Argatha, recreates his home and then rescues Sam and brings her there along with a younger version of Eddie. And he lets Sam and little Eddie play with their “toys” like they enjoyed doing in life. At the same time, the real Richtofen dies on Earth with the N4 and then gets stuck in the Afterlife with his old “friends”. During the opening cutscene, Richtofen is the only one who seems confused, like he just got there and doesn’t know what’s going on.

 

Then at the end of the map, Sam helped show them how to open the gateway to Argatha. She might think she’s playing a game, but maybe subconsciously she feels trapped in the place her dad has created, or maybe she knows a way to fix the Earth. Either way, the sirens could be sounding because the O4 have entered Argatha and Maxis’ dream, and are seen as invaders.

 

There’s a whole lot of assuming and guessing in there, so a lot of it could be wrong. But I still think Argatha and the Aether (where I think MotD and Orgins might actually take place), are playing a bigger role in the game. Even Five might have been in the Afterlife or Aether. The dates listed in that map show that it occurs right around the time of JFK’s assassination. So what if it occurs right after he died. The other 3 might not actually be dead, but that’s the “hell” that he created for himself. Who would want to hang out with Nixon and Castro? Even the opening cutscene resembles MotD’s. Black and white at first and a storm can be heard outside. A similar storm shown in Origins’ cutscene. And Ascension was a map that dealt with other dimensions and the Gersch Devise, which could explain why the phones their link up to Five. 

 

And lastly, if any of this holds ground, it could be why the N4 maps are kind of a mess. Nacht at Tranzit, Shanghai in Province 22, an old western town under an African mine. And all the weird creatures and ghosts. Even how the N4 are themselves, stuck in loops as shown by the Die Rise cutscene and the maps déjà vu quotes. And even how Maxis all of a sudden has some control on Earth. These phenomenon could be explained by the Rift. Once the rockets hit the Earth, a Rift opened up and Earth began to merge with the Aether dimension. This is why in MotD, we have all the new perk machines phasing in and out and new weapons in the box. Both places are feeling the effects.

 

Again, a lot of this is a long shot. I just think it cleans up the story line to explain it like this, and allows for the storyline to go in some interesting directions while offering a lot of freedom to the developers. Think of all the things in MotD and Origins. If the next game is us fighting through the dimensions to fix Earth, the maps could be anything while still being part of the story. And this theory keeps everything in place without paradox’s or alternate timelines. If the real story line Treyarch has in their heads is close to this theory, then a timeline could look like this.

 

'>

 

And if you really wanted to get creative, you could say that we got the WaW maps with the Moon DLC (unless preordered). So if the group died after Moon, they could have ended up at these old maps, like they were their Alcatraz. Thats why we can play Verruckt and Nact, even though most of the characters weren't really there and why the maps now have mule kick. And Sam thinks she is Richtofen in those maps. But thats just if you were really trying to explain them rebooting those maps. I don't really think they need the explanation. 

[swappingspit]

@swappingspit

Maxis stated goal at the end of Buried was to release Samantha from Agartha, and that Earth and it's people would not survive. It was a side effect, not his intentions. Same for Origins: he went back to free his daughter, with the side effect being he rewrites history. It's always been about his daughter.

 

"The process has begun! Now I control the Aether's Energy! I can at last reach Agartha!"

"Regretfully I must inform you, that neither the Earth, nor its people will survive"

"Once the gateway is open, I will finally be reunited with my dearest Samantha"

 

What I get from that is he's going to Agartha, not bringing Samantha out. It's really just semantics though, it could go either way.

 

One thing that stands out to me is the way almost all the characters, in all the maps, have dialogue referencing deja vu, recognizing a place or action, and a general feeling of repetitiveness. In Mob of the Dead, the characters seem to realize that something is going on:

 

"He's right. I can't remember a damn thing. This don't make no sense"

"Okay it's done! .... Wait a second - didn't we have one of these before? It looks kinda familiar"

"Where the F did those electric chairs come from?!"

"This [trap] wasn't here yesterday was it?"

"Does anyone else remember planning this here?"

"This place [GG]. It's weird, I think we've been here before."

 

etc.

 

In Origins though, each character seems confused and intrigued about their surroundings: the guns on the wall, the box, the drops, everything is new to them. If they were in the same loop, you'd think they'd recognize their surroundings. I think this is their first time there. I know it's hard to reconcile that with the side quest, but I also think the ending cutscene was meant to be taken literally, and that this map specifically was a story being told by a child based on things she had heard from her father. 

[ETEl2NAL407]

And with those quotes, therein is the cycle.

 

Origins is true as to what it is, literally. Perception changes from in-game characters to us (players). Agartha is our dimension. If we break the cycle in Origins, the truth is revealed that it's a children's game and nothing more, but what are those sirens in the background?

 

However...

 

All the other maps are meant to illustrate what happens when the game is played out fully. Eddie helps Richtofen. Sam helps her dad Maxis. When each one is in control (they directly reference eye color in the cinematic) they try to hurt the other one and foil their plans. If you match that to the in-game happenings and replace the supernatural with the game, it really all makes perfect sense.

[Tasers]

Agartha isn't our dimension lol its the Vril-ya's home world. By the way does anybody remember in Call of the Dead in the starting area in the water near the iceberg there is a strange design. To me that resembles an actual Vril-ya person.  but anyways, I agree shooter Samantha did go back in time, and I believe her dying on moon might have her goto agartha. If you guys remember when playing Tranzit the first diary entry has Maxis saying Samantha disappeared. To where? Origins? Probably, but how the hell did she go back in the time? The Casimir effect is known to cause time travel into the past. Maybe she used the mechanism? Maybe she used a gersch device to goto Agartha. Lol I also agree with the fact that personal history is never changed, but alternate timelines are created when you time travel. Similar to Dragonball Z when Trunks time travels lol it creates a different branch off of the original timeline. I don't think people "fade away" or disappear that's illogical what is making them disappear? lol. I also don't think after Buried Maxis caused Origins to happen because he doesn't know whats happening when Samantha talks to him during origins, if he time traveled he would know lol. I think the serious questions here are How did Samantha time travel because that's truly the missing link.

 

Other things to note. There is a wunderflizz machine in Der Riese, meaning the events in france could have happened, but were overrun by zombies. Thus giving another important question, Why are there statues of the O4 at the mound. 

BTW type 115 into the coder in MOTD and 666 comes up, meaning the devil. Type in 935 (richtofen, maxis, samantha) and 777 comes up, which is the perfect number in the bible, meaning Samantha could be a God or they are destined for something else. 
 

Too many questions my friends but we are on to something.

[ETEl2NAL407]

Samantha didn't time travel. Agartha for our characters is not the Vril-ya Agartha in reality. It's our reality, the real world. Our characters are just toys personified by Eddie and Samantha, so Samantha is not travelling time when she speaks to them in Origins. 

 

The story is also linear and doesn't have any alternate dimensional branches.

 

If the EE is completed in Origins, none of the other maps occur.

 

If the EE is not done in Origins, every other map occurs, but it's ultimately just a two children playing with dolls and creating a story. 

 

When we begin to play Zombies, NDU and on, Origins has already happened. It's a flashback map. 

[BBorn]

Good post. While I enjoyed the read and it made me think of things in a different way, I wanted to offer my theory since I also think understanding MotD leads you to understand what’s going on in Origins. One thing you were wrong about is that MotD isn’t the first cycle we’ve encountered. Shangri La was. Brock and Gary were stuck there reliving the same moments over and over. Even after we’ve helped them all the way to the pyramid, they still restart their loop, as if they didn’t complete the steps to break the cycle like the Weasel does.

 

After MotD came out, it made me rethink Shangri La. What if we never went back in time, but rather when we triggered the eclipse, we entered Argatha. Shangri La is supposed to be the gateway to Argatha and once we activate the columns, we clearly are somewhere different since the surroundings change and there is a giant meteor stuck in place. So what if this is the dimension of Argatha and that is what the eclipse represents. We had one at Der Riese as well, which could be symbolism since Maxis was trying to enter Argatha through his experiments there. The next time we see the eclipse is at the end of Origins. Samantha keeps telling us during Origins, to open the gateways to Argatha and then help free her. When we finally “open the gateway”, we are greeted with an odd cutscene and the eclipse in the background. So what if this is Argatha and it’s a place Maxis has made for himself? Its back at their home with his daughter and a child version of Richtofen. In some of the messages, he talks about Richtofen like he was the son he never had.

 

But then whats actually going on in Origns? In MotD, we know the inmates died and were then stuck in this cycle. We also know from the recordings, that time has continued on with them stuck there, since Ferguson recorded it after he retired. So while they redo the same events over and over, time is still continuing on. That’s why Weasel keeps adding to his notes and lists. Well what if the MotD we play actually takes place after Moon? Same thing with Origins. What if the old crew with Sam died after Moon and got stuck in a nightmarish place. Both maps make references to Gods and the afterlife. MotD has an Afterlife mode and Origins has a Zombie Blood mode. And Origins references Afterlife and Inferno in some of its messages. Sam also says something about not knowing how long they were trapped there. So Dempsey, Takeo, Nikolai, and maybe even Sam could have been stuck there after they died or teleported there from Moon. Then when Maxis’ ending for Buried happens, he enters Argatha, recreates his home and then rescues Sam and brings her there along with a younger version of Eddie. And he lets Sam and little Eddie play with their “toys” like they enjoyed doing in life. At the same time, the real Richtofen dies on Earth with the N4 and then gets stuck in the Afterlife with his old “friends”. During the opening cutscene, Richtofen is the only one who seems confused, like he just got there and doesn’t know what’s going on.

 

Then at the end of the map, Sam helped show them how to open the gateway to Argatha. She might think she’s playing a game, but maybe subconsciously she feels trapped in the place her dad has created, or maybe she knows a way to fix the Earth. Either way, the sirens could be sounding because the O4 have entered Argatha and Maxis’ dream, and are seen as invaders.

 

There’s a whole lot of assuming and guessing in there, so a lot of it could be wrong. But I still think Argatha and the Aether (where I think MotD and Orgins might actually take place), are playing a bigger role in the game. Even Five might have been in the Afterlife or Aether. The dates listed in that map show that it occurs right around the time of JFK’s assassination. So what if it occurs right after he died. The other 3 might not actually be dead, but that’s the “hell” that he created for himself. Who would want to hang out with Nixon and Castro? Even the opening cutscene resembles MotD’s. Black and white at first and a storm can be heard outside. A similar storm shown in Origins’ cutscene. And Ascension was a map that dealt with other dimensions and the Gersch Devise, which could explain why the phones their link up to Five. 

 

And lastly, if any of this holds ground, it could be why the N4 maps are kind of a mess. Nacht at Tranzit, Shanghai in Province 22, an old western town under an African mine. And all the weird creatures and ghosts. Even how the N4 are themselves, stuck in loops as shown by the Die Rise cutscene and the maps déjà vu quotes. And even how Maxis all of a sudden has some control on Earth. These phenomenon could be explained by the Rift. Once the rockets hit the Earth, a Rift opened up and Earth began to merge with the Aether dimension. This is why in MotD, we have all the new perk machines phasing in and out and new weapons in the box. Both places are feeling the effects.

 

Again, a lot of this is a long shot. I just think it cleans up the story line to explain it like this, and allows for the storyline to go in some interesting directions while offering a lot of freedom to the developers. Think of all the things in MotD and Origins. If the next game is us fighting through the dimensions to fix Earth, the maps could be anything while still being part of the story. And this theory keeps everything in place without paradox’s or alternate timelines. If the real story line Treyarch has in their heads is close to this theory, then a timeline could look like this.

 

'>

 

And if you really wanted to get creative, you could say that we got the WaW maps with the Moon DLC (unless preordered). So if the group died after Moon, they could have ended up at these old maps, like they were their Alcatraz. Thats why we can play Verruckt and Nact, even though most of the characters weren't really there and why the maps now have mule kick. And Sam thinks she is Richtofen in those maps. But thats just if you were really trying to explain them rebooting those maps. I don't really think they need the explanation. 

Samantha didn't time travel. Agartha for our characters is not the Vril-ya Agartha in reality. It's our reality, the real world. Our characters are just toys personified by Eddie and Samantha, so Samantha is not travelling time when she speaks to them in Origins. 

 

The story is also linear and doesn't have any alternate dimensional branches.

 

If the EE is completed in Origins, none of the other maps occur.

 

If the EE is not done in Origins, every other map occurs, but it's ultimately just a two children playing with dolls and creating a story. 

 

When we begin to play Zombies, NDU and on, Origins has already happened. It's a flashback map. 

"My name is Samantha, and I'm going to tell you how this all really began." - Samantha Maxis. Origins.

My name is Shooter, and I'm going to do my best to tell you what's really going on with Origins and the Zombies storyline.

To understand what has happened during Origins and the Zombies timeline, we must first understand Mob of the Dead. As we're all aware, Mob of the Dead is the first time we're introduced to this idea of a cycle in Zombies, and this concept of a cycle is very important. Let's go back to Alcatraz.
When we first start the map, the four mobsters are in their cells while Ferguson is patrolling the cell block. The Weasel tricks Ferguson into entering his cell, and after he does Al kills Ferguson. Then the prison is altered to a Hellish new form, zombies start storming the prison, and the four must fight for their lives and build a plane to escape the island.

However, while progressing through the Easter Egg on MotD, we learn from Ferguson that what we see in the beginning cut scene did not actually happen. We learn that the plane was never built, Al was murdered that night on New Years Eve 1934, and Ferguson lived a long life and worked at the prison until 1942. So which one was reality?

The story told by Ferguson during the Easter Egg is reality. The plane was never built and Al died on the roof. The map we play in is us repeating the cycle of events that night in a state of "Purgatory", ultimately dying in the end and continuously repeating the cycle. So what is the point of doing the Easter Egg if they're just going to end up dead in reality? It is because we are CHANGING the reality of what happened that night when we break the cycle. Through the events of the Easter Egg, we repeat what happened that night to actually rewrite history and the outcome of that night. We went back to the night of Al's death, and instead changed what happens so that history itself plays out differently. Instead of Al dying on the roof and Ferguson living, Al lives and Ferguson dies that night. The original reality has now been rewritten, and time will continue as is. Al goes on to live and publish his comic book that we see in the loading screens.

So the point of the "cycle": to go back to a point in time and do things differently than what originally had occured (reality), breaking the cycle of original events and rewriting history as a result. This is what happened with Mob of the Dead. Now let's apply the same logic from MotD to our story and Origins. There is an original reality, and there is us going back to a point in time and doing things differently in order to rewrite history (break the cycle).

The original reality is the reality as we know it. Let's take a brief overview:

*Note: The date for Moon, NTZ and Tranzit is subject to change.

1918 - Excavation Site 64. Northern France. Group 935 members Maxis and Richtofen lead the investigation for 115 at the Excavation Site. 115 is found and members began to turn. Allies Forces begin to move in on the base. Richtofen leaves with Maxis before capture, O4 never meet.
1933 - MotD occurs.
1935-1939 - Some time during this Samantha is born. 115 testing is done by Maxis and Richtofen, testing of prototype MTD begins.
1939 - Group 935 begins again after receiving funding from Nazi Party. More 115 is acquired and the MTD prototype is completed.
1945 - Samantha and Maxis betrayed by Richtofen at Der Riese. Sam enters pyramid (Aether), Maxis sent to an unknown tunnel. NDU - Der Riese occur. Maxis teleported to Griffin Station by Schuster and Groph so he can get his daughter out of the pyramid. It doesn't work, and Maxis is killed. After he dies, Maxis' soul travels to Aether where he's reunited with Sam.
1963-2012 - Kino through Moon occur. Richtofen travels through time to get the Focusing Stone and Golden Rod in order to take Samantha place in Aether while Samantha tries to stop them.
End of Moon - Richtofen takes Sam's place in Aether and now controls the zombies. Tank, Takeo, and Nikolai are killed at Griffin Station, Samantha goes to Agartha and is trapped there. Maxis blows up Earth as a last ditch effort to cut off Richtofen from getting the Earth's ethereal energy and taking full power in Aether. NTZ occurs.

This is when the O3's souls travel back to the night this all began, in the Purgatory version of 1918 France. They enter their old bodies and are forced to repeat a cycle of events until something can be changed.

Here is a link to a basic timeline with the events (couldn't get the image to post): http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=fc2wea&s=8#.Uwlxj8KYaM8

 

Edit: Hells Warrrior - image fixed

 

As the O3 are repeating the cycle, Richtofen's soul is now in charge of Aether, and can travel forward or backward in time as he chooses. Maxis is left powerless in Aether as his daughter is now gone and he has no one left to help him. Richtofen chooses to go decades forward in time to a point where survivors were emerging from the blast, and was able to get through to Stulinger (because he had been eating zombie flesh aka 115) at Green Run. Maxis also contacts the N4 at the site in Washington.

This is where the story splits, and depending on who is helped, their fate, and the story itself, is ultimately set in stone.

Richtofen - If all three towers are built for Richtofen, he regains power in Aether and now has the ability to reenter a human body from his position in Aether. With this accomplished Richtofen has all the ethereal energy needed and humanity's fate is sealed. The world is now Richtofen's play thing and Maxis will simply "cease to exist".

If Richtofen is helped, the original reality continues and history is written as is, with Richtofen ruling the world for eternity.


Maxis - If all three towers are built for Maxis and he receives the energy, he uses it to kick Richtofen out of the controller seat in Aether and take his place. After doing this, he places Richtofen's soul in a zombies body and forces him to live out a well deserved fate. He then uses the newfound energy in Aether to go back to a point in time to 1918 France, where he first learned of the gateway to Agartha and Samantha at Excavation Site 64.

If Maxis is helped, we go back to the night of Origins in 1918 in an attempt to free Samantha, and break the cycle of original events and rewrite history.

So you see, Origins is simply us going back in time to 1918, to where the O3 have been repeating their cycle, and rewrite the events of that night and break the cycle. Instead of Richtofen escaping with Maxis and the O4 never meeting (ultimately leading to Richtofen taking power), the O4 do meet and Maxis is instead transferred into a drone.

This however would have created a paradox. If Maxis rewrites the original history from 1918 on, and doesn't end up in his repalcement body (like the first time) , Samantha would no longer be born in the 1930's. This would also possibly alter the future of the O3 as well. Maxis resolves this by [insert theory here]

Haha, not what you expected I know. I am currently bouncing around three different possibilities for how he solved this, and am not set in stone on any as of yet. Below I'll provide one ideas that's been floating around.
 

 

Hidden Content

So there we have it. Origins solved, right? Well not quite.

While it answers the main idea of what's going on with Origins, the specifics behind it are much more blurred. The most important thing to focus on is the turning point at which the change occurs from the original 1918 Excavation Site 64 and the Origins 1918 Excavation Site 64. With MotD it was easy to identify the turning point, we saw it right in the opening cutscene. When Al kills Ferguson, the change occurs as the prison is transformed to it's hellish state. The turning point was easy to identify during MotD, unlike Origin's turning point.

We are certain that three things did not occur in the original 1918: the O4 meeting, maxis being put into a drone, and Samantha being stuck in Agartha. Everything else is debatable on whether it occured in the original reality or not. Origins' quotes, radios, and notes have provided quite a bit of info on how much actually occured the first time, but again it's still open for debate.





Now let's get the discussion going once again. I've got a lot more to touch on!
Shooter


The ideas for this thread began awhile ago, but it was a recent discussion on the forums that sparked it up again and made me want to write this. For discussion sake I will provide the discussion and the response I was preparing for deciding to write this thread.

 

So you're saying every time we go back in time a new branch is being made from the original timeline? But it's still the one timeline we're looking at with multiple branches yes? I guess that's what I'm trying to say. I'm not saying it's a traditional set timeline, it's obvious it can't be considering the backward time travel taking place. I'm no expert on the complexities of time travel and the physics behind it, so call it a branching timeline, pre-destined timeline, whatever. Lol clearly I'm not good with the technical terms. Whatever the name is of the timeline we're dealing with is not really my concern anyways, since in the end we're following the events of the time traveler. All I know are the events occur in this specific order.


- 1918 Original Origins - Tank, Tak, and Niko never meet, Maxis brain is transferred to new younger body, Maxis and Richtofen live.
- Mid-late 1930's Maxis has a child named Samantha
- 1939 Group 935 is reformed by Maxis and Richtofen and continue working on `115
- 1945 NDU-Der Riese. Richtofen betrays Maxis and Sam, Sam gets into Aether
- Kino - Moon. Richtofen works to get Sam out of Aether and put himself in.
- World blows up at the end of Moon. Richtofen takes control of Aether, Samantha is sent to Agartha
- Green Run - Buried. New 4 build towers to give Maxis power. Maxis gains control of Aether from Richtofen.
- 1918 New Origins. Maxis travels back to the original 1918, but this time things happen differently. Tank Tak and Niko meet, Maxis brain is placed in a jar because Richtofen didn't have time to finish the operation like he did in the original 1918 Origins. Samantha is released from Agartha. This created a paradox though, since history being rewritten from 1918 would mean Maxis never gets his new body and Samantha is never born. Maxis says he fixes the paradox at the end of the EE, and the last thing we're left with is a cutscene from the 1940's.

It's important to note that there are two different 1918 Origins. One is the original events, and the other is us rewriting the original events by going back to a point in time in the original events and
doing something different. It's exactly like Mob of the Dead when you think about.

Interesting. I was uncertain myself as to whether or not an original 1918 event occured at all.

What makes you believe so?

[because I'm dying to give another answer to this although it was directed towards Shooter (who is free to kill me as he pleases).]

The 1918 excavation mission is more than likely set in stone regardless how much you try to flop the timeline around. As Shooter said, there are two positions that include that objective - (1) where Group 935 set themselves up in Northern France and eventually found 115 + the Ancient ruins, and (2) the organization is swarmed by the undead which brings in four unlikely soldiers to fight together and open the gateway to Agartha.

There is no designated evidence in any past maps that recall excavations in Northern France. We know that 115 has been available on Earth since 1908 ala Tunguska event. That alone gives us some confidence in the possibility of even unearthing Element 115 by then.

But I must confess in that all this hype, there is one small problem - the powers of 115. According to the Origins that we play in, Group 935 unearthed the element and used it to create machines powerful enough to captivate the entire area. Think about it: giant patrol robots, Panzer Soldats, the upbringing of the Mystery Box through discovery of 115's distortion of time and space, the Pack-a-Punch machine (yes, it is related outside game mechanics as Richtofen even goes as far as explaining the origins of it and what it can be after building it). Had the Germans harnessed 115's abilities in reality, would they have not won World War I?

That leads me to think that while Group 935 did start their excavation in Northern France, the reality was that they were unsuccessful in discovering Element 115 along with the Ancient Ruins. Thus, they did not have the power to push back the Allies and lost the war in 1918. I'm positive that finding the element would lead to the same result of obtaining such vivacious power beyond their wildest dreams. Sad to say, they didn't.

Tl;dr: The 1918 excavation did occur, but only to a certain extent. It isn't until Samantha's existence within Agartha that the event is distorted into a new timeline and result.

 

I just thought it more likely myself that Germany, and the world, was largely unaware of that entire ruin with WW1 going on and such, but Samantha warped things enough to lead Maxis there, and the other 3 warriors.

I mean, Samantha could have had a sunconscious influence on Maxis well before 1918, possibly even starting after the initial exposure at Tunguska. The resulting coincidence of the other three appearing, I would assume is also Samantha's doing. As much as she probably didn't care for the idea of Richtofen being involved, it was only a minor concern as she knew that this Richtofen wouldn't recognize her fully (although he makes some rather ominous quotes about that very subject) and therefore wouldn't impede her goals. She just wants to be with her Dad again. So she influenced these world leaders, Japan's Emperor, and the military leaders in USA and Russia, to send the three best zombie fighters she knew of to France to protect her father after she realized that there was something else involved in the area.
The ancient evil, which I believe may somehow be Richtofen-led zombies. Somehow, our actual O4 went back in the past of that timeline, and Richtofen chased them there, which inspired the ruins to be built and left all these ancient zombies around. I don't think they are actively controlled by a Richtofen at that time, because no matter which way you spin the story, Richtofen ends up stuck, either in Samuel's body, or the random zombie's body. Even at "full power" he still gets stuck. He just isn't equiped to control the aether.


So short version: The ruins at 1918 were never visited, and possibly didn't even exist, until the aether gods warped the timeline.

However that's how I always looked at it. If there is reason to believe that it did happen the first time around, I'd gladly take a look.

It just seems unlikely too me, as the main chamber of the ruins is dedicated to the O4, and that just wouldn't fit without some timeline warping happening. But then there would be an aether god present pre-Moon incident, and I'd think he/she would have tried harder to defend the MPD from intrusion in that event.

One could argue that the O4 statues were only there the second time around, sure, but then I have probably just as much weight in saying that the whole ruins only existed the second time around.

 

And the response I was making:

Let's reestablish what we're trying to accomplish in Origins: we're trying to free Samantha from Agartha. As we recall, we did not start time traveling and Samantha did not enter Aether (and later Agartha) until 1940-1945, so the original 1918 event did not include Samantha's influence on Maxis whatsoever, we know that. And we also have to remember that Samantha enters Agartha AFTER being kicked out of Aether, so any possibility of her being the one manipulating all of this gone as she no longer had the power to do so. Those are the basics.

[tab][/tab]If we go back to Buried, it was actually Maxis himself who had just gained full control of Aether and had the power to manipulate time and space to his advantage. That was the whole reason for all the towers in BO2. To give Maxis the ethereal energy to take Richtofen's position as controller, so he could go back in time to the point where he first learned of the gateway and free Samantha. It is much more likely that it was actually Maxis manipulating things.

And as far as there being no evidence from previous maps that the Excavation Site existed, that is true. But there's also a lot to support that 115 and testing of the MTD prototype occurred well before 1939 and Der Riese. If you recall the earliest dated radio (radio 1 from Moon I believe) dated December 4 1939, it mentions that the test they are performing is test 151, suggesting tests with 115 occurred well before Der Riese. Maxis also has a diary that mentions that their MTD tests at the "new site" have been unsuccessful, indicating a previous site had existed before Der Riese in which they were experimenting with 115.

Also, consider the blueprint of the 115 Extraction Drill found on the wall in the Laboratory on Origins. This drill is the same one we see in the Nuketown Zombies loading screen in Nevada. Now we all know the Americans had a "large supply of the element at their Nevada base", but we never knew how they acquired the 115. We'll if I had to bet, I'd say the Americans (as a part of the Allies) seized the blueprints after capturing the Excavation Site and built the drill somewhere on the Nevada Test Site.

There's certainly some evidence to support than an original 1918 event did occur that involved Maxis, Richtofen, Group 935, 115 and the ancient ruins. Not to mention, it's a much more logical assumption. Is it possible that some random mysterious Aether god manipulated all of this in some alternate dimension for unknown reasons? Sure. But is it not much more logical to think that a majority of these things existed in the original 1918? And that Maxis was simply teleporting back to that point in time just like Mob of the Dead.

Infest brings up a great point. If the Germans had such tremendous power with 115, how come they lost the war?

1. The discovery and advancements came too late. Quotes from Richtofen on Origins indicate that many of the machines and devices were still in the prototype stage. Both the tank and giant robots were still in their prototype stage, as indicated by quotes about the tank's overheating problems and robot's problems with the velocity compensators.

2. The ancient evil took over the base, stopping all work from being finished and sent to the front lines.

"My name is Samantha, and I'm going to tell you how this all really began." - Samantha Maxis. Origins.

My name is Shooter, and I'm going to do my best to tell you what's really going on with Origins and the Zombies storyline.

To understand what has happened during Origins and the Zombies timeline, we must first understand Mob of the Dead. As we're all aware, Mob of the Dead is the first time we're introduced to this idea of a cycle in Zombies, and this concept of a cycle is very important. Let's go back to Alcatraz.
When we first start the map, the four mobsters are in their cells while Ferguson is patrolling the cell block. The Weasel tricks Ferguson into entering his cell, and after he does Al kills Ferguson. Then the prison is altered to a Hellish new form, zombies start storming the prison, and the four must fight for their lives and build a plane to escape the island.

However, while progressing through the Easter Egg on MotD, we learn from Ferguson that what we see in the beginning cut scene did not actually happen. We learn that the plane was never built, Al was murdered that night on New Years Eve 1934, and Ferguson lived a long life and worked at the prison until 1942. So which one was reality?

The story told by Ferguson during the Easter Egg is reality. The plane was never built and Al died on the roof. The map we play in is us repeating the cycle of events that night in a state of "Purgatory", ultimately dying in the end and continuously repeating the cycle. So what is the point of doing the Easter Egg if they're just going to end up dead in reality? It is because we are CHANGING the reality of what happened that night when we break the cycle. Through the events of the Easter Egg, we repeat what happened that night to actually rewrite history and the outcome of that night. We went back to the night of Al's death, and instead changed what happens so that history itself plays out differently. Instead of Al dying on the roof and Ferguson living, Al lives and Ferguson dies that night. The original reality has now been rewritten, and time will continue as is. Al goes on to live and publish his comic book that we see in the loading screens.

So the point of the "cycle": to go back to a point in time and do things differently than what originally had occured (reality), breaking the cycle of original events and rewriting history as a result. This is what happened with Mob of the Dead. Now let's apply the same logic from MotD to our story and Origins. There is an original reality, and there is us going back to a point in time and doing things differently in order to rewrite history (break the cycle).

The original reality is the reality as we know it. Let's take a brief overview:

*Note: The date for Moon, NTZ and Tranzit is subject to change.

1918 - Excavation Site 64. Northern France. Group 935 members Maxis and Richtofen lead the investigation for 115 at the Excavation Site. 115 is found and members began to turn. Allies Forces begin to move in on the base. Richtofen leaves with Maxis before capture, O4 never meet.
1933 - MotD occurs.
1935-1939 - Some time during this Samantha is born. 115 testing is done by Maxis and Richtofen, testing of prototype MTD begins.
1939 - Group 935 begins again after receiving funding from Nazi Party. More 115 is acquired and the MTD prototype is completed.
1945 - Samantha and Maxis betrayed by Richtofen at Der Riese. Sam enters pyramid (Aether), Maxis sent to an unknown tunnel. NDU - Der Riese occur. Maxis teleported to Griffin Station by Schuster and Groph so he can get his daughter out of the pyramid. It doesn't work, and Maxis is killed. After he dies, Maxis' soul travels to Aether where he's reunited with Sam.
1963-2012 - Kino through Moon occur. Richtofen travels through time to get the Focusing Stone and Golden Rod in order to take Samantha place in Aether while Samantha tries to stop them.
End of Moon - Richtofen takes Sam's place in Aether and now controls the zombies. Tank, Takeo, and Nikolai are killed at Griffin Station, Samantha goes to Agartha and is trapped there. Maxis blows up Earth as a last ditch effort to cut off Richtofen from getting the Earth's ethereal energy and taking full power in Aether. NTZ occurs.

This is when the O3's souls travel back to the night this all began, in the Purgatory version of 1918 France. They enter their old bodies and are forced to repeat a cycle of events until something can be changed.

Here is a link to a basic timeline with the events (couldn't get the image to post): http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=fc2wea&s=8#.Uwlxj8KYaM8

 

Edit: Hells Warrrior - image fixed

 

As the O3 are repeating the cycle, Richtofen's soul is now in charge of Aether, and can travel forward or backward in time as he chooses. Maxis is left powerless in Aether as his daughter is now gone and he has no one left to help him. Richtofen chooses to go decades forward in time to a point where survivors were emerging from the blast, and was able to get through to Stulinger (because he had been eating zombie flesh aka 115) at Green Run. Maxis also contacts the N4 at the site in Washington.

This is where the story splits, and depending on who is helped, their fate, and the story itself, is ultimately set in stone.

Richtofen - If all three towers are built for Richtofen, he regains power in Aether and now has the ability to reenter a human body from his position in Aether. With this accomplished Richtofen has all the ethereal energy needed and humanity's fate is sealed. The world is now Richtofen's play thing and Maxis will simply "cease to exist".

If Richtofen is helped, the original reality continues and history is written as is, with Richtofen ruling the world for eternity.


Maxis - If all three towers are built for Maxis and he receives the energy, he uses it to kick Richtofen out of the controller seat in Aether and take his place. After doing this, he places Richtofen's soul in a zombies body and forces him to live out a well deserved fate. He then uses the newfound energy in Aether to go back to a point in time to 1918 France, where he first learned of the gateway to Agartha and Samantha at Excavation Site 64.

If Maxis is helped, we go back to the night of Origins in 1918 in an attempt to free Samantha, and break the cycle of original events and rewrite history.

So you see, Origins is simply us going back in time to 1918, to where the O3 have been repeating their cycle, and rewrite the events of that night and break the cycle. Instead of Richtofen escaping with Maxis and the O4 never meeting (ultimately leading to Richtofen taking power), the O4 do meet and Maxis is instead transferred into a drone.

This however would have created a paradox. If Maxis rewrites the original history from 1918 on, and doesn't end up in his repalcement body (like the first time) , Samantha would no longer be born in the 1930's. This would also possibly alter the future of the O3 as well. Maxis resolves this by [insert theory here]

Haha, not what you expected I know. I am currently bouncing around three different possibilities for how he solved this, and am not set in stone on any as of yet. Below I'll provide one ideas that's been floating around.
 

 

Hidden Content

So there we have it. Origins solved, right? Well not quite.

While it answers the main idea of what's going on with Origins, the specifics behind it are much more blurred. The most important thing to focus on is the turning point at which the change occurs from the original 1918 Excavation Site 64 and the Origins 1918 Excavation Site 64. With MotD it was easy to identify the turning point, we saw it right in the opening cutscene. When Al kills Ferguson, the change occurs as the prison is transformed to it's hellish state. The turning point was easy to identify during MotD, unlike Origin's turning point.

We are certain that three things did not occur in the original 1918: the O4 meeting, maxis being put into a drone, and Samantha being stuck in Agartha. Everything else is debatable on whether it occured in the original reality or not. Origins' quotes, radios, and notes have provided quite a bit of info on how much actually occured the first time, but again it's still open for debate.





Now let's get the discussion going once again. I've got a lot more to touch on!
Shooter


The ideas for this thread began awhile ago, but it was a recent discussion on the forums that sparked it up again and made me want to write this. For discussion sake I will provide the discussion and the response I was preparing for deciding to write this thread.

 

So you're saying every time we go back in time a new branch is being made from the original timeline? But it's still the one timeline we're looking at with multiple branches yes? I guess that's what I'm trying to say. I'm not saying it's a traditional set timeline, it's obvious it can't be considering the backward time travel taking place. I'm no expert on the complexities of time travel and the physics behind it, so call it a branching timeline, pre-destined timeline, whatever. Lol clearly I'm not good with the technical terms. Whatever the name is of the timeline we're dealing with is not really my concern anyways, since in the end we're following the events of the time traveler. All I know are the events occur in this specific order.


- 1918 Original Origins - Tank, Tak, and Niko never meet, Maxis brain is transferred to new younger body, Maxis and Richtofen live.
- Mid-late 1930's Maxis has a child named Samantha
- 1939 Group 935 is reformed by Maxis and Richtofen and continue working on `115
- 1945 NDU-Der Riese. Richtofen betrays Maxis and Sam, Sam gets into Aether
- Kino - Moon. Richtofen works to get Sam out of Aether and put himself in.
- World blows up at the end of Moon. Richtofen takes control of Aether, Samantha is sent to Agartha
- Green Run - Buried. New 4 build towers to give Maxis power. Maxis gains control of Aether from Richtofen.
- 1918 New Origins. Maxis travels back to the original 1918, but this time things happen differently. Tank Tak and Niko meet, Maxis brain is placed in a jar because Richtofen didn't have time to finish the operation like he did in the original 1918 Origins. Samantha is released from Agartha. This created a paradox though, since history being rewritten from 1918 would mean Maxis never gets his new body and Samantha is never born. Maxis says he fixes the paradox at the end of the EE, and the last thing we're left with is a cutscene from the 1940's.

It's important to note that there are two different 1918 Origins. One is the original events, and the other is us rewriting the original events by going back to a point in time in the original events and
doing something different. It's exactly like Mob of the Dead when you think about.

Interesting. I was uncertain myself as to whether or not an original 1918 event occured at all.

What makes you believe so?

[because I'm dying to give another answer to this although it was directed towards Shooter (who is free to kill me as he pleases).]

The 1918 excavation mission is more than likely set in stone regardless how much you try to flop the timeline around. As Shooter said, there are two positions that include that objective - (1) where Group 935 set themselves up in Northern France and eventually found 115 + the Ancient ruins, and (2) the organization is swarmed by the undead which brings in four unlikely soldiers to fight together and open the gateway to Agartha.

There is no designated evidence in any past maps that recall excavations in Northern France. We know that 115 has been available on Earth since 1908 ala Tunguska event. That alone gives us some confidence in the possibility of even unearthing Element 115 by then.

But I must confess in that all this hype, there is one small problem - the powers of 115. According to the Origins that we play in, Group 935 unearthed the element and used it to create machines powerful enough to captivate the entire area. Think about it: giant patrol robots, Panzer Soldats, the upbringing of the Mystery Box through discovery of 115's distortion of time and space, the Pack-a-Punch machine (yes, it is related outside game mechanics as Richtofen even goes as far as explaining the origins of it and what it can be after building it). Had the Germans harnessed 115's abilities in reality, would they have not won World War I?

That leads me to think that while Group 935 did start their excavation in Northern France, the reality was that they were unsuccessful in discovering Element 115 along with the Ancient Ruins. Thus, they did not have the power to push back the Allies and lost the war in 1918. I'm positive that finding the element would lead to the same result of obtaining such vivacious power beyond their wildest dreams. Sad to say, they didn't.

Tl;dr: The 1918 excavation did occur, but only to a certain extent. It isn't until Samantha's existence within Agartha that the event is distorted into a new timeline and result.

 

I just thought it more likely myself that Germany, and the world, was largely unaware of that entire ruin with WW1 going on and such, but Samantha warped things enough to lead Maxis there, and the other 3 warriors.

I mean, Samantha could have had a sunconscious influence on Maxis well before 1918, possibly even starting after the initial exposure at Tunguska. The resulting coincidence of the other three appearing, I would assume is also Samantha's doing. As much as she probably didn't care for the idea of Richtofen being involved, it was only a minor concern as she knew that this Richtofen wouldn't recognize her fully (although he makes some rather ominous quotes about that very subject) and therefore wouldn't impede her goals. She just wants to be with her Dad again. So she influenced these world leaders, Japan's Emperor, and the military leaders in USA and Russia, to send the three best zombie fighters she knew of to France to protect her father after she realized that there was something else involved in the area.
The ancient evil, which I believe may somehow be Richtofen-led zombies. Somehow, our actual O4 went back in the past of that timeline, and Richtofen chased them there, which inspired the ruins to be built and left all these ancient zombies around. I don't think they are actively controlled by a Richtofen at that time, because no matter which way you spin the story, Richtofen ends up stuck, either in Samuel's body, or the random zombie's body. Even at "full power" he still gets stuck. He just isn't equiped to control the aether.


So short version: The ruins at 1918 were never visited, and possibly didn't even exist, until the aether gods warped the timeline.

However that's how I always looked at it. If there is reason to believe that it did happen the first time around, I'd gladly take a look.

It just seems unlikely too me, as the main chamber of the ruins is dedicated to the O4, and that just wouldn't fit without some timeline warping happening. But then there would be an aether god present pre-Moon incident, and I'd think he/she would have tried harder to defend the MPD from intrusion in that event.

One could argue that the O4 statues were only there the second time around, sure, but then I have probably just as much weight in saying that the whole ruins only existed the second time around.

 

And the response I was making:

Let's reestablish what we're trying to accomplish in Origins: we're trying to free Samantha from Agartha. As we recall, we did not start time traveling and Samantha did not enter Aether (and later Agartha) until 1940-1945, so the original 1918 event did not include Samantha's influence on Maxis whatsoever, we know that. And we also have to remember that Samantha enters Agartha AFTER being kicked out of Aether, so any possibility of her being the one manipulating all of this gone as she no longer had the power to do so. Those are the basics.

[tab][/tab]If we go back to Buried, it was actually Maxis himself who had just gained full control of Aether and had the power to manipulate time and space to his advantage. That was the whole reason for all the towers in BO2. To give Maxis the ethereal energy to take Richtofen's position as controller, so he could go back in time to the point where he first learned of the gateway and free Samantha. It is much more likely that it was actually Maxis manipulating things.

And as far as there being no evidence from previous maps that the Excavation Site existed, that is true. But there's also a lot to support that 115 and testing of the MTD prototype occurred well before 1939 and Der Riese. If you recall the earliest dated radio (radio 1 from Moon I believe) dated December 4 1939, it mentions that the test they are performing is test 151, suggesting tests with 115 occurred well before Der Riese. Maxis also has a diary that mentions that their MTD tests at the "new site" have been unsuccessful, indicating a previous site had existed before Der Riese in which they were experimenting with 115.

Also, consider the blueprint of the 115 Extraction Drill found on the wall in the Laboratory on Origins. This drill is the same one we see in the Nuketown Zombies loading screen in Nevada. Now we all know the Americans had a "large supply of the element at their Nevada base", but we never knew how they acquired the 115. We'll if I had to bet, I'd say the Americans (as a part of the Allies) seized the blueprints after capturing the Excavation Site and built the drill somewhere on the Nevada Test Site.

There's certainly some evidence to support than an original 1918 event did occur that involved Maxis, Richtofen, Group 935, 115 and the ancient ruins. Not to mention, it's a much more logical assumption. Is it possible that some random mysterious Aether god manipulated all of this in some alternate dimension for unknown reasons? Sure. But is it not much more logical to think that a majority of these things existed in the original 1918? And that Maxis was simply teleporting back to that point in time just like Mob of the Dead.

Infest brings up a great point. If the Germans had such tremendous power with 115, how come they lost the war?

1. The discovery and advancements came too late. Quotes from Richtofen on Origins indicate that many of the machines and devices were still in the prototype stage. Both the tank and giant robots were still in their prototype stage, as indicated by quotes about the tank's overheating problems and robot's problems with the velocity compensators.

2. The ancient evil took over the base, stopping all work from being finished and sent to the front lines.

[BBorn]

Okay Did The Futere Maps Happen Or Was It Just Samanthas Mind Games