Shangri La time travel explanation.

[Daveyjone]

I put this in annother post but I'll put the bit about time travel here where it belongs.

Some of you might be asking how those two guys could be trapped, but in a loop, which shouldn't work due to the laws of ontological paradoxes [That if something ages by any amount it can't be in a paradox as it would age by an amount untill it died/decomposed. The solution is to be a. Immortal, or b. Use a past/new version of the object eg a book is discovered in the future, the reciever copies the book and sends it back in time so it can be recieved and copied and sent back...etc.], but honestly if that upsets you, I could probably give some reason as to how it could work

i.e. that as they are going back in time physics is working in reverse so to speak therefore the cells in their body would reverse their slow decomposition through life [ageing ] to the point they reached Shangri La. That would also mean any injuries, spent ammo, energy and equipment would be healed/returned to them as they are at a point where they wouldn't have injured themselves/used it.

Think of it as NOT a circular loop through time but alternating, like rewinding a video :]

Or something deus ex machina, like the 115 de-ages them, heals them etc.

The other bit is how they could have their past change, well in layman's terms there are 3 possible effects of time travel:

1. You can't change the past, it has already happened when your in the present ergo it can't be changed. Also this means you cannot change the future but thats not relevent here and would just confuse things.

2. Time can be changed, every action changes the timeline, just travelling to the past will cause it to change!

3. Time can be changed, but will balance itself by changing as little as possible. i.e it will stick as closely to the original events as possible.

Simply 3 is the answer.The presence of the characters in the past is not enough, they must do drastic things eg, close a pit of lava. But the results are still close to the original.

[strange-bow7]

Nice topic, good work! [brains]

Due to previous experience I can fully appreciate how hard explaining time travel, loops, paradoxes etc can be using only written word - Even more so when the audience completely misses the point!! .... Very frustrating!!

Anyway, with all that said, I'd have to go with the Second option you put forward. Don't get me wrong I understood what you were saying fully and I like the idea that time could kind of correct itself and balance out when an alteration is made but I have to respectfully disagree with you; For answer 3 to be true it would imply that time itself was a sort of living thing, kinda, in the sense that it would have a mind of it's own and supporting logic with the power to re-shape events in the timeline to keep the flow smooth. Sure, it's more than plausible that Treyarch intended to use time this way however, my understanding of the matter is a little different...

When the heroes arrive at Shangri-La the two explorers, Gary and Brock, are dead. They travelled up the river in search of Argartha only to run into a horde of Zombies and get trapped in small structure.

Brock: "The heat and humidity is just excruciating. According to the locals, the temple should be in this mountain range, just up this river. Gary, do you hear that? A waterfall, we must be close! Hand me the binoculars! There is a structure up ahead. If this is truly a gateway to Argatha, my work will finally be validated!"

Gary: "Uhh, Brock, I don't think this place is abandoned."

Brock: "Don't be silly. This place has to be thousands of years old"

*Static*

Brock: "I have found some unfinished carvings around the structures I can't make out. They do not look like...wait...what is this?"

*Sounds of objects being moved are heard, followed by the sound heard when teleporting*

Gary: "What the hell is that? Why is the sky dark?"

*Zombies can be heard*

Brock: "It's an eclipse! We must've-"

Gary: "Run!"

*The two are heard running*

Gary: "What are those things?"

Brock: "Zombies. We'll have to find another way."

Gary: "Zombies? What're you talking about?"

Brock: "The writings must've been right. No! Don't touch that! Damn, take a look around and try to find a way out"

Gary: "I got nothin'."

Brock: "We will have to conserve our supplies. Take your shoes off and hand me your socks."

*Static*

*Zombies are once again heard*

Brock: "I have been trapped in the temple structure for days. Gary is dead. I don't see a way out of here. I can still hear the zombies outside. I fear this is my last recording, as the battery's about to die. And I will soon follow. One thing I can be certain of, is that blood-"

*End of transmission*

This is the first radio you can find and it clearly explains what I said, they arrived, got trapped and died. End of story, well, not exactly...

The heroes then find a way to travel back in time using the buttons in the starting area and travel back to the point where the explorers are trapped in the structure and still alive. With only a limited amount of time in this period our heroes must find a way to free them in order to gain access to Richtofen's shrine (although it's actually only Richtofen who is aware of what they must do as he is, presumably, the only one with knowledge of the shrines existence). So following this is the easter egg, where the heroes must keep traveling back in time, making alterations to free the explorers according to the radio's that are left behind.

This is where the confusion starts.

You see, you never actually free them, you just prevent them from dying so they can make it further into the temple. Upon doing so you have canceled out the events of the first radio, at least the part where they are trapped. This then changes the story again, by this point the survivours have travelled up the river, run into some zombies, hidden in the structure and then found their way into some catacombs where they stay and get gassed ultimately dying, 'again'.

Brock: "We are moving through a small network of tunnels. This seems to be some sort of aquaduct system. Unless this was carved out of the much later-"

Rocks are heard tumbling

Gary: "Holy crap!"

Brock: "We need to start digging and get past this cave-in!"

They are heard digging.

Brock: "Well, we lucked out on that!"

Gary: "I wouldn't classify any of this as 'lucky'."

Brock: "Well we are still alive."

Zombies heard moaning

Gary: "Shh, do you hear that?"

Zombies now screaming

Brock: "Quickly! Under there!"

Zombie moaning stops

Gary: "Great, another dead end."

Brock: "Well at least we're safe for now."

Machinery is heard moving

Gary: "Really?!"

Gas is heard and both are heard coughing. Coughing then stops and thumps are heard. They most likely passed out.

*Static*

Brock: "Gary! Gary, get up! Hello?!"

It's all very confusing so let me sum it up and put it into a hypothetical situation:

You wake up in the morning and want some cereals. You head to the **** please report this topic, post ****, check the fridge and cupboard only to find out that you have no milk or cereals. You give up, go hungry all morning, have a bad day and get fired from your job!! (All because of no cereals?!?!? This is all hypothetical remember!!!)

A week later you (somehow) find a way to travel back in time and the first thing you want to do is go back to the point where you missed out on breakfast so you can stop yourself from getting fired!! So you grab some milk and head back to the night before that fateful morning. You put the milk in the fridge only to realize that you have forgotten the actual cereals! D'oh!!!!!

So you need to go back to the future, grab the cereals and then plant them there. Meanwhile your past self wakes up next morning, goes to the **** please report this topic, post ****, finds the milk but no cereals, goes hungry, goes to work and gets fired...

Future you arrives back at the night before again, this time with the cereals, plants the cereals and then leaves.

Your past self wakes up again that morning, goes to the **** please report this topic, post ****, grabs the milk, grabs the cereals and heads to work - living happily ever after!!

hahaha

A bit crazy, I know, but it is this basic template that is used for the Shangri-La easter egg. It's the actions of the heroes that cancel out the various fates of the explorers the same way future you cancels out past you getting fired!! All the while, the explorers and past you alike are blissfully unaware that if it wasn't for the actions of the people from the future you would have met a horrible fate!!

There is probably an easier way of explaining this but I guess at the end of the day the point im trying to make is this:

It's the heroes who manipulate time and certain situations to complete their goal, not time itself correcting events...

[Daveyjone]

That's what I was saying! but your example was simpler and easier to understand

nb. i never said that they were trying to save brock and gary, just how it was possible

And remember I didn't invent those 3 theories, they're the 3 main theories on time travel in the idea that it is a loop

This one is like prince of persia, its like rewinding a video as i said, but the fact that the events are sticking closely doesnt mean time is sentient like in Prince of Persia, its more like the 4 examples in wikipedia:

2.2 History is change resistant in direct relationship to the importance of the event ie. small trivial events can be readily changed but large ones take great effort.

i.e.

-In the Twilight Zone episode "Back There" a traveler tries to prevent the assassination of President Lincoln and fails, but his actions have made subtle changes to the status quo in his own time (e.g. a man who had been the butler of his gentleman's club is now a rich tycoon).

-In the 2002 remake of The Time Machine, it is explained via a vision why Hartdegen could not save his sweetheart Emma—doing so would have resulted in his never developing the time machine he used to try and save her.

-In The Saga of Darren Shan, major events in the past cannot be changed, but their details can alter while providing the same outcome. Under this model, if a time traveler were to go back in time and kill Hitler, another Nazi would simply take his place and commit his same actions, leaving the broader course of history unchanged.

-In the Doctor Who episode The Waters of Mars, Captain Adelaide Brooke's death on Mars is the most singular catalyst of human travel outside the solar system. At first, the Doctor realizes her death is a "fixed point in time" and does not intervene, but later defies this rule and transports her and her crew to Earth. Rather than allow human history to change, Captain Brooke commits suicide on Earth, leaving history mostly unchanged.

None of these claim time to be sentient or having control over this It's more of a plot idea that time won't drastically change rather that everything changing, if it were the latter for Shangri-la everything would change due to the one act, i.e. takeo would be black, dempsey would cease to exist and richtoffen would be replaced by George Romero :D

[strange-bow7]

None of these claim time to be sentient or having control over this It's more of a plot idea that time won't drastically change rather that everything changing, if it were the latter for Shangri-la everything would change due to the one act, i.e. takeo would be black, dempsey would cease to exist and richtoffen would be replaced by George Romero

Oh right I see what your getting at now! The old 'Kill a butterfly in the past..' theory.

It is a valid point and a good observation but I'd say that it could be explained by the fact that they never travel back far enough to cause any real damage. The fact that the explorers are using a modern radio shows that they cant be that far in the past. And considering that Shangri-La is set in present day (or so it's beleived) then traveling back in time from when they arrive still puts them in the future compared to Kino, Ascension, "Five" and all the classic maps - if that makes sense?!

Like if they where travelling back to before WW1, say, then they could easily make changes that would impact their appearance and such as they wouldn't have been born yet. But seeing as though they are actually still in the future, whether they travel back in time or not, then drastic changes to them, the temple and other elements are avoided.

[Tac]

I'm very sorry, but I am so confused right now... Let me explain to you what I understand. So in basics, you are saying that... Shit I don't know. Can you please help a N00B? What are all the points you are attempting to make? Are you saying that the characters are stuck and die. Then in the future, the characters come and go back in time and they are un-killed and repeat the same thing over and over?

[Tac]

And I really can't tell if this is regarding the thread. When they die, that is the reason that you go to save them. When you save them, they haven't died so you have no reason to save them, thus undoing the course of events that led you to save them in the first place. Therefore, you don't go and save them, so they die, making you want to save them. It repeats until you stop interfering with the situation.

[Tac]

The other theory: Basically have time that branches off like a river and both outcomes take a different direction and you are in a super position between both outcomes. So every time you go back in time to save them you enter a new timeline, thus creating alternate timelines. We don't know which could be correct because you can plug the information into each of them and they would make sense and have the same result/outcome, so it could be other.

[Tac]

But for one, if you were in a paradox it would mean that time WOULD have to stop because if you keep going back and forth between not saving them and saving them, everything else around you would have to revert to the state is was in both cases. If that makes sense?

Example:

Anyone that might have seen you talking about saving them would have to go back and forth between observing you talking about it and not talking about. You would throw the entire universe into a paradox which stops right where the 2 possible outcomes diverge.

Basically, if you're in a paradox the whole universe would have to wait for you to get out of it before it can keep moving through time... But of course you can't get out of a paradox, simply because it's a paradox.

Just the things I mull over, it's a mute point considering we already said either could be possible.

[strange-bow7]

Basically, if you're in a paradox the whole universe would have to wait for you to get out of it before it can keep moving through time... But of course you can't get out of a paradox, simply because it's a paradox.

If i travelled back in time from now that wouldn't mean everybody else would freeze and be stuck until i return as Time is constantly moving forward. It would simply mean that I could go back to any chosen point in time, stay there for as long as I want and then travel back to a couple of seconds after I initially travelled back giving the illusion that time had stood still whilst I was gone.

[Tac]

Imagine this. When you go back in time you are effecting the whole universe, so if you don't go back in time you are not effecting the universe. So the second the team decided to not go back in time again, the whole universe if effected. The second they make the decision to go back in time for the first time, the paradox begins, making the universe stop, thus making a paradox impossible.

[strange-bow7]

Imagine this. When you go back in time you are effecting the whole universe, so if you don't go back in time you are not effecting the universe. So the second the team decided to not go back in time again, the whole universe if effected. The second they make the decision to go back in time for the first time, the paradox begins, making the universe stop, thus making a paradox impossible.

Wait, wait hang on a second!

What team are you referring to here exactly?

If you mean Gary and Brock, the explorers from Shangri-La, then they never actually made the choice to go back in time.

Like I have said before when you arrive at Shangri-La (as Tank, Richtofen, Nikolai and Takeo) Gary and Brock died after they recorded the first radio that you find, meaning that the paradox/loop hasn't happened yet. The steps to the easter egg have you being sent back in time to make 'changes to the universe' in order to ensure they survive long enough to gain access to the focusing stone; that's the whole point in the easter egg, to make changes that will effect whats happening present day. The thing is though, the changes that are made arern't drastic enough to effect the universe in any major way, they did things to change the temple and the temple alone, it's not as if they travelled back and killed hitler at birth.

As for making the universe stop I don't really get what you are trying to say. Now I know where you are coming with your theory it's just an impossible argument to make; am I wrong in thinking that you're saying Gary and Brock can't be stuck in a loop because the universe would stop?! Because that seems like a silly thing to say when it's pretty much told to us, in game, that this is what's happening? Not only can you hear it in the radios but you can do the easter egg fours times over which to me shows that they are indeed stuck in a loop in time. The fact that there is a map after Shangri-La shows time hasn't stood still.

[Tac]

I am just basing this off of all my knowledge of paradox's. But idk if this means anything towards this conversation, Gary and Brock get trapped when they activate the eclipse. But either way, I think that we are just dealing with a standard paradox in which the same thing will happen over and over until we stop interfering. The second we stop interfering, they die for good.

[strange-bow7]

I am just basing this off of all my knowledge of paradox's. But idk if this means anything towards this conversation, Gary and Brock get trapped when they activate the eclipse. But either way, I think that we are just dealing with a standard paradox in which the same thing will happen over and over until we stop interfering. The second we stop interfering, they die for good.

See, you get it now. well done!

[Tac]

Lol but that type of paradox is not possible, you have to create alternate timelines. This theory says that if you go to the past and change a particular event, in the mainline nothing ever happened. Instead a new timeline is created that branches off at the moment of change. Think of time as a river, every decision creates a new stream down the river. Each stream is an alternate timeline of events due to your decisions. The main river is the main timeline in which nothing was effected.

[strange-bow7]

Lol but that type of paradox is not possible, you have to create alternate timelines. This theory says that if you go to the past and change a particular event, in the mainline nothing ever happened. Instead a new timeline is created that branches off at the moment of change. Think of time as a river, every decision creates a new stream down the river. Each stream is an alternate timeline of events due to your decisions. The main river is the main timeline in which nothing was effected.

Yes but the fact that at the end of the easter egg Gary & Brock are taken back in time to before they died and any changes were made means they canceled out any alternate timeline that may have being formed.

[Tac]

Well it didn't cancel out an alternate timeline, I think they just created a new one. The characters "reset" everything back to how it was, but that doesn't mean they reset the decision made to save them the first time, that decision was still made, therefore the alternate timeline would still exist.

[Daveyjone]

Its the idea Prince of Persia use with the dagger, its rewinding time like rewinding a recorder, and due to Artistic licence and Deus Ex Machina it doesn't completely change time :D

[Tac]

Lol I posted my theory in the General Zombis Discussino

[strange-bow7]

Its the idea Prince of Persia use with the dagger, its rewinding time like rewinding a recorder, and due to Artistic licence and Deus Ex Machina it doesn't completely change time

To be honest I think that the location is a big factor in this. You have to remember that it's the temple that takes you back in time and if time was 'rewinding' then you would experience that as a player. Instead, the temple, causes the time to change instantly as if you were teleported directly in that time period as apose to rewinding all the way back...

Well it didn't cancel out an alternate timeline, I think they just created a new one. The characters "reset" everything back to how it was, but that doesn't mean they reset the decision made to save them the first time, that decision was still made, therefore the alternate timeline would still exist.

I understand what you are saying about these alternate time lines, because Gary & Brock can be saved and therefor have the potential to altar the future however, at the end of the easter egg Gary & Brock are teleported back in time to when the first radio was recorded which was quite a while before they got trapped and died(the first time). By coming back to this point they have looped back to a point before the heroes arrive, canceling out what they did and ultimately all of the other 'alternate timelines' as they just get trapped again and die.

In game proof supports this as you can do the easter egg up to 4 times (I think) to have all of your team have max perks. By repeating the egg you are just going back to the same point you did the first time and doing the same things again to get the same result.

Lol I posted my theory in the General Zombis Discussino

Why the italic and you wanna provide a link?

[Tac]

I understand what you are saying about these alternate time lines, because Gary & Brock can be saved and therefor have the potential to altar the future however, at the end of the easter egg Gary & Brock are teleported back in time to when the first radio was recorded which was quite a while before they got trapped and died(the first time). By coming back to this point they have looped back to a point before the heroes arrive, canceling out what they did and ultimately all of the other 'alternate timelines' as they just get trapped again and die.

In game proof supports this as you can do the easter egg up to 4 times (I think) to have all of your team have max perks. By repeating the egg you are just going back to the same point you did the first time and doing the same things again to get the same result.

First off, when they teleport back in time to restart the egg, the the first radio was NOT recorded way before they were trapped and died. I can't tell if you mean in literal time (including the idea of time travel) or chronologically. Either way it's false, because they are traveling in the 2000's looking for Agartha, then they go back in time and get trapped AFTER they activate the Eclipse. But going back in the paradox doesn't cancel out any other timelines because they still happened. And you are right in your last paragraph, but that can't be done without creating an alternate timeline, paradox's in the same mainline don't work like that.

As for the italics, I put them because I know we disagree on the outcome of the paradox, so I was trying to show that this is what I personally believe, not what 'we' believe. For the link, I forgot I posted it in the Research Facility, not the Gen Disc., so here is the link:

viewtopic.php?f=67&t=18349

[strange-bow7]

okay, i read your post, its good.

so we can agree that all this is creating alternate timelines and such blah blah blah.

the thing is though, in your post you say that if you travelled back in time and killed your grandfather before he met your grandmother then it would cancel out your birth therefor erasing your existence meaning that your grandfather would live. no?

well if you applied this to shangri-la then wouldn't that mean that you wouldn't be able to acquire the focusing stone because when you acquire it Gary and Brock are sent back in time again, undoing everything you did to get the focusing stone in the first place?

In Shangri-La though you can get it 4 times at once.

How can that be possible if your theory is true?

[Tac]

Damn, damn great post dude. I see what you mean by cancelling out now.

As far as getting it 4 times at once, I want to say that it's purely for gameplay mechanics to get all the characters the perks and Treyarch wouldn't just get rid of the Focusing Stone the second the Easter Egg ends and then 'restarts.' I know it's a piss-poor reason, but I can't think of anything else :/ Pick it apart :)

[strange-bow7]

Damn, damn great post dude. I see what you mean by cancelling out now.

As far as getting it 4 times at once, I want to say that it's purely for gameplay mechanics to get all the characters the perks and Treyarch wouldn't just get rid of the Focusing Stone the second the Easter Egg ends and then 'restarts.' I know it's a piss-poor reason, but I can't think of anything else :/ Pick it apart

I'm done picking this apart!

It is extremely frustrating and wordy to try and explain something as complicated as time loops and paradoxes using only text!

Like I said though, I read your topic and it's good. The idea of this 'Grandfather Paradox' is a solid one and seems to make sense up until the point where you can have 4 focusing stones. I'd have to agree with you at this point and say that the only reason this is possible is purely for gameplay purposes.

It would be nice to hear an alternate theory off somebody else as to how this is possible but until then I'd say that we have the answer correct.

Thanks for your time ;)

[Tac]

Yeah until someone comes up with something else I'm sticking to this. This is one of those topics that I can be easily swayed, but it's just such a confusing topic I'm trying to figure it out. I mean it's difficult to try and make sense of something that's not possible xD But I appreciate you helping me out and discussing, you're the kind of person CoDz loves! :D

[strange-bow7]

Yeah until someone comes up with something else I'm sticking to this. This is one of those topics that I can be easily swayed, but it's just such a confusing topic I'm trying to figure it out. I mean it's difficult to try and make sense of something that's not possible xD But I appreciate you helping me out and discussing, you're the kind of person CoDz loves!

Absolutely.

If somebody can provide a better answer then I'm sold but I think we have the right idea, for now.

At times you can often find yourself arguing/debating with someone even though you both think the same thing, the confusion comes from the way posts are worded and how you interpret a certain explanation!

Like you, I too am trying to figure all of this out; time travel and paradoxes are such a prominent plot element in the zombies storyline that I think if we could fully understand how it all works then our understanding of the zombie story would be a lot more clear.

We should maybe get together and share some ideas on the matter sometime, With two minds at work we are more likely to uncover the truth!