A Zombie Trilogy v.III [NOW IN VIDEO]

DeathBringerZen · May 19, 2013

I'm aware of all that. That doesn't change a thing. Does Tank Dempsey have a Facebook page? Does he know a man called "player"? You have to take quotes with a grain of salt. Btw, read the first post for the explanation of Lucifer's quote. There's no possible way for you to bring that up AND have read what we say about it.

Ah... touche Sir... touche.

Still, I do believe that the events of MotD are more laid out for us to help us get the point of what is going on.

Your OP is a great POV on the matter, but I just feel it is a case that the introduction sequence we see is not the original events of that night.

Credit where it is due though... you know how to sway a debate back in you favor.

MysteryMachineX · May 19, 2013

Thanks, but if you read the first post, I do NOT think the cinematic is the original sequence, but rather, the first repeat. The important thing I was pointing out, though, was that Arlington, under whatever circumstances, chose to brutally kill Ferguson in the second version of history. Ferguson's current state is irrelevant. The point is that Arlington made the choice to kill a man to escape. He's not a saint.

Zelkova · May 19, 2013

No one debated the matter of whether he was a saint as everyone of us agreed none of them were. We debated whether he was a murderer. I would also like to point out that since you wanted to be the one to use the opening cinematic as your basis that they each tell him he has gone soft since getting in there and doesn't know how to kill a man apparently. To be honest you guys I have still been iffy on whether to count MotD at all until we get details on the next zombie as it breaks so many laws like CotD. We didn't even think that we were initially going to include CotD until the next came out proving we had the item we got in CotD.

DeathBringerZen · May 19, 2013

Thanks, but if you read the first post, I do NOT think the cinematic is the original sequence, but rather, the first repeat. The important thing I was pointing out, though, was that Arlington, under whatever circumstances, chose to brutally kill Ferguson in the second version of history. Ferguson's current state is irrelevant. The point is that Arlington made the choice to kill a man to escape. He's not a saint.

Yes, well that was always something that I questioned in the back of my mind, but I put it down to them doing what there surrounding influenced them to do, but who knows.

Anyway... you have swayed me to the point of now having to wait for the questions to hopefully be addressed in the upcoming DLC's.

You are right though... he does brutally murder someone, whether it is in real life or not.

The quotes from them however are slightly less skewed than the throw away quotes from BO1 I reckon, but time will tell.

Monopoly Mac · May 19, 2013

We're never going to hear about Motd again. I'd bet my life on it.

DeathBringerZen · May 19, 2013

We're never going to hear about Motd again. I'd bet my life on it.

Funnily enough, I said this to several people in the first few days. I thought of it as a trolling map that would make us THINK that Arlington is the creator of the Comic Book loading screens, but really, we would never hear about these characters or the events again.

You could be right mate... I have definitely thought this too.

MysteryMachineX · May 19, 2013

No one debated the matter of whether he was a saint as everyone of us agreed none of them were. We debated whether he was a murderer. I would also like to point out that since you wanted to be the one to use the opening cinematic as your basis that they each tell him he has gone soft since getting in there and doesn't know how to kill a man apparently. To be honest you guys I have still been iffy on whether to count MotD at all until we get details on the next zombie as it breaks so many laws like CotD. We didn't even think that we were initially going to include CotD until the next came out proving we had the item we got in CotD.

Well, it proves he murdered someone. And Billy only said that because he thought Al failed in killing him, when the actual reason was that Ferguson turned into a zombie. And the Call of the Dead thing, I had nothing to do with that. I wasn't even on this website at the time. I include every actual zombies map. I even considered the spin-offs, before grudgingly having to say no to those.

Yes, well that was always something that I questioned in the back of my mind, but I put it down to them doing what there surrounding influenced them to do, but who knows.

Anyway... you have swayed me to the point of now having to wait for the questions to hopefully be addressed in the upcoming DLC's.

You are right though... he does brutally murder someone, whether it is in real life or not.

The quotes from them however are slightly less skewed than the throw away quotes from BO1 I reckon, but time will tell.

This is how I morally judge the characters:

Sal; good - cares a lot for those close to him; bad - owned an illegal gang

Billy; good - has moral conflicts about what he does; bad - kills people anyway

Finn; good - loved his wife; bad - did illegal gambling

Al; good - doesn't commit bad deeds that often; bad - does do them sometimes

It's hard to think of good things for them. Basically, their redeeming qualities are more how they behave themselves clashing with the things they have done.

We're never going to hear about Motd again. I'd bet my life on it.

Probably, like Call of the Dead. The only way we heard of Call of the Dead again was through the characters, but there are no common characters between this map and any other.

Monopoly Mac · May 19, 2013

Now why do you stick with the canon you've established on your story? Do you say Lucifer changed history because you think it will actually matter in next maps or do you say this because the evidence points towards it?

MysteryMachineX · May 19, 2013

I operate under the assumption that Treyarch will go bankrupt tomorrow. Unrealistic, yes, but I analyze based on current evidence, not the hope of more evidence in the future. I stick with what I've said because through debate the evidence has been determined correct. You're coming in post trying to evaluate it, but I am pretty sure we have it right. And there is a category of theory I call over-encompassing, metaphysical theories, which I have always rejected for years. I will not accept heaven nor parallel dimensions because the ideas are SO outlandish that they REQUIRE direct evidence.

Shooter · May 19, 2013

Before I begin, I think we all should give ourselves a friendly reminder that this is MMX's storyline theory thread. We may not agree with everything he has written, but it's not mine, or your's, or CoDz's storyline, it's MMX's. He will always have the final say on what he wants to pick for his story. I think we all forget this sometimes, myself included, because we tend to look at this thread as the primary storyline discussion thread for CoDz, which it is. Their is a wealth of knowledge and information from all of our members, but we need to remember that it's an MMX story, not a CoDz story.

All we can do is provide our opinions on things and support them in debates, but if he ultimately chooses not to include something than that is his choice.

Let's try to drop the hostility a bit folks

Onto the responses.

In my opinion, if you're gonna entertain the idea of Luciifer and Hell, then you must at least be open to the idea that there is a heaven for these characters. Besides...

“Five, six, seven. Nobody’s going to Heaven.” - Al Arlington

One of our characters mention it directly. Sure, he mentions they won't be going there, but still the idea of it existing for our characters is there.

Edit: Also, you guys are correct, Al was never a murderer. The other three all have quotes admitting that they've murdered people, and that they don't even feel bad for it. But Al hasn't commited murder, and he feels bad for the petty crimes he commited. Al said it best: "he's nothing like the others".

Then we're agreeing, because I do NOT entertain the idea of a Lucifer nor an underworld.

The being we call Lucifer is only for lack of a better name. I have said that from day one.

And wow. Arlington, an American in the '30's, knows of the existence of Christianity. Was that really what you're bringing to the table?

Arlington murdered Ferguson. Was I the only one who watched the intro cutscene? And don't go and tell me that that murder doesn't count. It was done viciously. None of these characters are black and white. They ALL have done horrible things. And they ALL have sympathizing qualities. This is the trademark of zombies. These attributes are shared with the original four characters.

Ah,I apologize for the confusion. But I would make a huge recommendation to not refer to the announcer or control in Mob of the Dead as "Lucifer". Lucifer is a very specific person, and to label this controller as Lucifer himself only greatly confuses things. When I read your original post and you start talking about "Lucifer", I'm going to instantly think you're talking about the Hell-Satan kind of Lucifer and not the Mob of the Dead Controller. Just a tip to avoid mass confusion in the future. So the possibility of this being Lucifer himself and a level of Hell that they're in is simply not an option for you, that's what you're saying correct?

My point in mentioning Al's quotes about not going to Heaven is the fact that these characters themselves mention Heaven and Hell and their ultimate fate within the two. Would it not be crazy to consider these things when explaining our story of Mob of the Dead, as our characters have various quotes about it. I'm not saying it's what we ultimately have to go with, but it's simply something to consider.

MotD has done almost everything outside the box of what we've previously known, we must be open to ideas that may be new to the existing storyline. I'll be the first to say I didn't really like the whole Satan Hell talk with zombies before Mob of the Dead. Alpha had been one of the biggest advocates of this angle. And while I loved his old theories (best threads on CoDz really), they lacked any true evidence. It was all circumstantial, and the quotes about Hell were very limited. But now we have Mob of the Dead, which blows everything out of the water. For me, it had finally confirmed that the whole Hell thing had some relevance, and was worth discussing. Why you see no need to discuss it at all is beyond me.

And you and I look at Ferguson's death and the opening cutscene much the same MMX, but we seem to interpret some things much differently.

Think about it. Stanley Ferguson never died in reality, he went on to work at the prison until 1942. So technically, Al never murdered him. It's not until he's in Purgatory does he kill Ferguson and break the original cycle of Al dying that night instead of Ferguson. Al needed to break the cycle somehow. A much more justified killing than any of the other three mobsters could compare to.

We've got to look at the events of Mob of the Dead very closely. Here's how I see the event's to place, in as simple of a way as I can.

I was under the strong impression the Al had only been in this to make sure his soul would rest peacefully, but based on the quotes I've come across since the audio files were released. I'm starting to believe Al somehow got out of this whole thing alive in the end. Will we see Al again in the storyline? I seriously doubt it, but I'm going to leave the possibility open.

Btw, both Billy and Finn have killed people. I've heard a quote from Finn that says that he killed someone as well. I haven't begun Sal's quotes yet, but I have a feeling I'm going to hear one from him as well. I'm under the impression that Al wasn't nearly as bad as the other mobsters, in retrospect.

MysteryMachineX · May 19, 2013

Before I begin, I think we all should give ourselves a friendly reminder that this is MMX's storyline theory thread. We may not agree with everything he has written, but it's not mine, or your's, or CoDz's storyline, it's MMX's. He will always have the final say on what he wants to pick for his story. I think we all forget this sometimes, myself included, because we tend to look at this thread as the primary storyline discussion thread for CoDz, which it is. Their is a wealth of knowledge and information from all of our members, but we need to remember that it's an MMX story, not a CoDz story.

To be honest, I wish that this distinction didn't exist, but sadly it is not the case. I hate shutting theories down, but I have to.

All we can do is provide our opinions on things and support them in debates, but if he ultimately chooses not to include something than that is his choice.

Let's try to drop the hostility a bit folks

I appreciate that. But know that while I may do that, you (plural) may see it being done out of stubbornness or some sense of pompousness, but I honestly do it because I believe it right. There are some things that are cool to theorize about, but cannot be substantiated. Just look at the Pentagon Thief. I don't even discuss his identity because there's dozens of alternative theories to who he is.

If I tried to lay down firm what DID happen in these cases, I'd be causing even more harm than I could be accused of doing now. Now, I know to some it may seem I do this is some cases anyway, but in those cases I do feel there is enough evidence to say what did happen, or at least what likely happened.

Ah,I apologize for the confusion. But I would make a huge recommendation to not refer to the announcer or control in Mob of the Dead as "Lucifer". Lucifer is a very specific person, and to label this controller as Lucifer himself only greatly confuses things. When I read your original post and you start talking about "Lucifer", I'm going to instantly think you're talking about the Hell-Satan kind of Lucifer and not the Mob of the Dead Controller. Just a tip to avoid mass confusion in the future. So the possibility of this being Lucifer himself and a level of Hell that they're in is simply not an option for you, that's what you're saying correct?

The way I see it, this being was the inspiration of the devil, not the devil himself. The truth behind the myth kind of thing. He shares a lot of similarities with a religious devil, but that isn't to say they are one in the same. This is backed by the fact that there isn't any one denomination he takes influence from. He takes influence from many. I say the different devils in the world are different interpretations of this guy. He has no real name besides the ones people have given him.

I specifically mentioned early on in my storyline a bunch of alternative names for him. But, for the sake of simplicity and consistency, I only call him one name throughout the rest of it. We had a vote, and the winner was Lucifer, due to the Christian influences. But it's just a name. I can understand the confusion, but we had to call him something.

My point in mentioning Al's quotes about not going to Heaven is the fact that these characters themselves mention Heaven and Hell and their ultimate fate within the two. Would it not be crazy to consider these things when explaining our story of Mob of the Dead, as our characters have various quotes about it. I'm not saying it's what we ultimately have to go with, but it's simply something to consider.

You could interpret it that way, but it really is left up to interpretation. I see it as them simply stating their religious affiliations, like when Richtofen says "Thank you, my Lord" (which ambiguously relates to either God, Samantha, or satanism).

MotD has done almost everything outside the box of what we've previously known, we must be open to ideas that may be new to the existing storyline. I'll be the first to say I didn't really like the whole Satan Hell talk with zombies before Mob of the Dead. Alpha had been one of the biggest advocates of this angle. And while I loved his old theories (best threads on CoDz really), they lacked any true evidence. It was all circumstantial, and the quotes about Hell were very limited. But now we have Mob of the Dead, which blows everything out of the water. For me, it had finally confirmed that the whole Hell thing had some relevance, and was worth discussing. Why you see no need to discuss it at all is beyond me.

I don't believe it fair to say one religion over the other is right, and I don't think a company would either. That's why I go with the truth behind the myth kind of thing. Is there a truth behind the myth of the underworld? Maybe. Don't know. Perhaps the mobsters are experiencing it. Underworld. Purgatory. What's in a name?

And you and I look at Ferguson's death and the opening cutscene much the same MMX, but we seem to interpret some things much differently.

Think about it. Stanley Ferguson never died in reality, he went on to work at the prison until 1942. So technically, Al never murdered him. It's not until he's in Purgatory does he kill Ferguson and break the original cycle of Al dying that night instead of Ferguson. Al needed to break the cycle somehow. A much more justified killing than any of the other three mobsters could compare to.

But do you think Al knew that? Al lost his memory too. He was able to preserve it in a form with his journal, but if the cinematic was indeed the first repeat, that hadn't happened yet. He killed Ferguson for the same reasons he would've (yet didn't) the first time around.

We've got to look at the events of Mob of the Dead very closely. Here's how I see the event's to place, in as simple of a way as I can.

[*:3o9vpduy]Original event. Events described in the EE ("the Truth"). The group never builds plane. The three kill The Weasel on the roof. Al doesn't kill Ferguson on NEw Year's Eve after playing sick, Ferguson lives.
[*:3o9vpduy]Al goes to purgatory immediately afterwards. Repeats night of his death and original event (Al doesn't kill Ferguson after playing sick, Ferguson lives.)
[*:3o9vpduy]Other three mobsters arrive in Purgatory 19 days later. First break in the original event: Al goes through with it, Al lives, Ferguson dies. New cycle begins (original event rewritten.) Alcatraz transformed to Hellish state seen at end of MotD opening cutscene. Mobsters die in the end of cutscene. [*:3o9vpduy]Mobsters repeat cycle of building the plane, dying , and having to rebuild the plane and die.
[*:3o9vpduy]Cycle repeats as we pick up playing as the mobsters in the start of game, as we need to build the plane again, complete the events of Pop Goes the Weasel, and break the repeating cycle.
[*:3o9vpduy]History rewritten. Stanley Ferguson dies, Al survives and is able to escape.

I agree with point 1, but I'm not sure about the rest. I don't disagree with it. If my story was written every other line, what you have here could fill in the blanks between it. We're essentially on the same page with this list of yours, but you are far too specific for my taste. I just don't think we have enough to get that specific with how the cycle starts. But we end up in the same place. Although there is one difference. You see this "purgatory" as a literal purgatory. I see it as a time-loop, a direct reference to the theory of the time-loop in Der Riese. (Whether there actually was one in Der Riese is left up to speculation.)

I was under the strong impression the Al had only been in this to make sure his soul would rest peacefully, but based on the quotes I've come across since the audio files were released. I'm starting to believe Al somehow got out of this whole thing alive in the end. Will we see Al again in the storyline? I seriously doubt it, but I'm going to leave the possibility open.

I didn't know the audio files were released. I'll have to take a look at them. There have been many people in the storyline whose ultimate fates were left unknown: Al, the actors, George Romero, the Turned survivor.

Btw, both Billy and Finn have killed people. I've heard a quote from Finn that says that he killed someone as well. I haven't begun Sal's quotes yet, but I have a feeling I'm going to hear one from him as well. I'm under the impression that Al wasn't nearly as bad as the other mobsters, in retrospect.

Well, of course Billy did. He's a hitman. Finn? I didn't think he did. But I'll take a look at his quotes. You could discuss shades of gray all day long, but the point I was making was that they were ALL gray.

And thanks for contributing to the discussion after so long an absence.

EDIT: I can't find those quotes anywhere, unfortunately.

Monopoly Mac · May 19, 2013

"You killed before, Finn, but it was always business. Not this time, pal." -Finn

Not sure when he says it in game but he says it in the trailer

MysteryMachineX · May 19, 2013

"You killed before, Finn, but it was always business. Not this time, pal." -Finn

Not sure when he says it in game but he says it in the trailer

Aww, that's too bad. I liked Finn. Seems like the most ethical group of characters we ever got were the Call of the Dead actors.

Zelkova · May 19, 2013

Isn't Finn the mobster boss? Audio logs were released 2 days after the pc got the expansion before that people were just writing down the random quotes.

Monopoly Mac · May 19, 2013

Sals the boss, Billy is the hit man, Al's the planner, and Finns just the guy who ran illicit gambling operations.

Zelkova · May 19, 2013

Sals the boss, Billy is the hit man, Al's the planner, and Finns just the guy who ran illicit gambling operations.

Thank you for clearing that up I always get Sal and Finn mixed up. Anyways moving on why do we even say that the voice is Lucifer. Heck for all we know it could actually be The Warden who was performing demonic rituals. He could have asked for power, power that could keep the prison and inmates in check, though as you know whenever making deals with demons there is a price that is never spoken of and that price could've been his body. What we are experiencing is him testing his powers on us 4 making us sort of like guinea pigs to test out his powers on.

I am just saying.

Monopoly Mac · May 20, 2013

That... Is an incredibly interesting theory. I always wondered where the Warden was in the map.

Zelkova · May 20, 2013

I've been thinking about it and before I presented it I actually tried to see if I could find holes in it.

Shooter · May 20, 2013

Thank you for clearing that up I always get Sal and Finn mixed up. Anyways moving on why do we even say that the voice is Lucifer. Heck for all we know it could actually be The Warden who was performing demonic rituals. He could have asked for power, power that could keep the prison and inmates in check, though as you know whenever making deals with demons there is a price that is never spoken of and that price could've been his body. What we are experiencing is him testing his powers on us 4 making us sort of like guinea pigs to test out his powers on.

I am just saying.

Finn: "How's my more times? What do I need to understand? This is some kind of black magic voo doo shit?! Someone make this all happen? The warden? Was it the stuff in his office that caused all this?

Monopoly Mac · May 20, 2013

A good question to ask is why he wants Albert to survive.

MysteryMachineX · May 20, 2013

The rituals you see that the Warden did, they seem sacrificial in nature. Quite satanic too. So I think he was worshipping. That means that there's someone that he worshipped to.

Zelkova · May 20, 2013

Blood is required and from things I have seen sacrifices as well to call upon a demon depending on the demons strength. The theory would than still hold. The reasoning behind the amount could be due to botched attempts which could happen depending on how accurate he was when he attempted.

Monopoly Mac · May 20, 2013

Thank you for clearing that up I always get Sal and Finn mixed up. Anyways moving on why do we even say that the voice is Lucifer. Heck for all we know it could actually be The Warden who was performing demonic rituals. He could have asked for power, power that could keep the prison and inmates in check, though as you know whenever making deals with demons there is a price that is never spoken of and that price could've been his body. What we are experiencing is him testing his powers on us 4 making us sort of like guinea pigs to test out his powers on.

I am just saying.

Finn: "How's my more times? What do I need to understand? This is some kind of black magic voo doo shit?! Someone make this all happen? The warden? Was it the stuff in his office that caused all this?

So are you supporting the theory or not supporting it?

MysteryMachineX · May 20, 2013

If you like your theory, go make a thread on it.

Zelkova · May 20, 2013

WOAH MMX stop with the hostilities you call yourself a man of science well your actions state otherwise.

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