Pack 'a Punch: BLOODLINE

[Aussienitro]

I've produced a follow on movie to the "Pack 'a Punch: FUSION" video that I have shown before which details the other function of the machine (which was pretty much ignored before), "breeding" guns together to create a bloodline with each gun holding influence from those that you have held before. Its a little complex buy once you have you head around it, its rather simple and I believe to be the best and most original idea of the lot.

Heres the vid series,

Pack 'a Punch: BLOODLINE

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Pack 'a Punch: FUSION

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Full 35 page ideas document on youtube

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[drmaxireland]

Lets hope Treyarch pays as much attention to the forum as they say they do because this is genius.

[Matuzz]

Putting racist things at start of the video isn't smart move :roll:

[WhosOnFirst]

Putting racist things at start of the video isn't smart move :roll:

Oh lord I did laugh though, just at the three kings and white men cant jump referance.

So AussieNitro, you have put a lot of work into your idea; I am not so sure that you have looked at your idea in the same way a studio design team would.

Each new weapon would need a texture and model created for it. Possibly additional character lines for at least a percent of the guns. Given the math thats allready a lot of work for something that would essentially be a visual addition to the game.

The reason it would be nothing more than visual is that all those guns would likely act in the same manner, due to balance and level design; it would be a knightmare otherwise.

The PaP mechanic adds character to the weapons in terms of audio and behaviour, as it would be improbable if not immpossible for TreyArc to keep those attributes for say even 50+ weapons it starts to make the pleasure of PaPing a weapon redundant. Remember the first time you PaPed an MG42, Oh lord...Pew pew pew. Would that feeling still remain with so many weapons that could not be defined in terms of character.

I probably have not made my case here very well, I like your idea. I do think it need to be slimmed down and defined to stand a chance of being looked at seriously by TreyArch. Only because as it stands now it would seem to be a huge amount of work for a studio for very little reward in terms of being inovitive to gameplay due to the issues I mentioned earlier.

I should probably read this back to myself but IMA just gona hit the post but...

[Aussienitro]

All critisism is welcomed, but I will argue my point as I really don't agree.

Firstly I did make effort to insult all races and genders in the video black, white, male female.... even Einstein was grey.

I used 36 standard guns in the example because that is how many I drew, this is more then any previous game and more then those likely to come. This can be toned back a bit to reality.

Its MUCH more then a visual addition to the game, you're thinking too shallow about the end result and not the lead up to it. "Pack 'a Punch" as it stands is purely a "rinse and repeat" mechanism, along with some glitz and visuals, with the exception of the crossbow/b.knife all it does is make your gun as good as it was a few rounds before, yet its hailed as the most awesome thing ever.

FUSION and BLOODLINE are very different from the gameplay and development point of view.

FUSION, development wise is much the same as all guns made before. Gameplay wise it provides real purpose to some of the guns that have been forgotten and never seen the PaP machine and provides an avenue for producing more powerful guns that have to be worked for not just given by random chance out of a box (which as it stands I see as a flaw in game design). Fusion guns are also characterised by unique abilities that can't be done in standard guns which gives a lot more variation then the single "wonder weapon" format we've been given before.

BLOODLINE is purely code/equation based there is no new gun models or animations needed, just a distinguishing texture. You can't understate the importance of being able to experiment and create, this is the reason "minecraft" is so popular, its certainly not because of visuals or compelling gameplay. Let people create things in game and it will be a big hit. Note that BLOODLINE is also in effect the ammo machine people have been asking for, but to get ammo you have to choose what to breed it with and in doing so changing its properties for better or worse.

Its all complex, no question about it. But we are talking of the most popular game in history raking in what.. a billion dollars. Saying its "too hard" is no excuse. Treyarch will only act on what the community expects, makes good business sense, but if the community expects more then they are more then capable of providing.

[strange-bow7]

wow dude, nice post!

Everybody on here should be giving you a lot more credit because these are genuinely good, plausible, ideas that you have blatantly worked hard on.

So am I right in thinking the process is sacrificing two guns for one that is more powerful based on averaging the stats of the 'parent guns', which you can then 'breed' with another gun to create an even more powerful gun, developing a bloodline that gets stronger as you continue to mix and match various weapons?

[Aussienitro]

wow dude, nice post!

Everybody on here should be giving you a lot more credit because these are genuinely good, plausible, ideas that you have blatantly worked hard on.

So am I right in thinking the process is sacrificing two guns for one that is more powerful based on averaging the stats of the 'parent guns', which you can then 'breed' with another gun to create an even more powerful gun, developing a bloodline that gets stronger as you continue to mix and match various weapons?

Thanks. I think people understand the concept but the significance and possibilities it opens up is completely lost on them, that or they just don't care enough to give it any thought.

In the movie I kept it to simply averaging the stats, thus they will always be bound by the abilities that are already present. The guns wont get more powerful then the most powerful nor slower then the slowest, just the way averaging works. And there is quite a significant reward in that you get ammo refill each time, this prevents the trap in a normal "ammo machine" where one would just get the most powerful gun and keep buying ammo for it which would make for a very boring game. With bloodline the guns continually evolve for better or worse.

In the document I alluded to the ability to insert multipliers into the "bloodline equation" to improve certain stats. For example if they added leveling to the game one of the rewards could be "1.2x firerate multiplier at level 10 or 1.2x damage multiplier on 2nd tier fusion at lvl 30 etc. as they couldn't give guns or perks as rewards like in MP. Just one way of expanding on the idea.

[InFiNiTev2]

This is a fantastic idea but you made it seem too complex I think just the base idea is great so stay with that

[this.is.how.to.do.it]

This is by far the best and most original idea I have seen anywhere regarding zombies. You deserve a lot more credit for your ideas and I really hope Treyarch takes notice. If this was implemented, zombies would also become a game of creation, as people come up with their own unique weapons. Additionally, there would be an added element of discovery as people attempt to find the unique combinations. Since the addition of PaP, weapon advancement has become somewhat stagnant. As such, this idea or some other innovation that evolves the concept of PaP should be added to spice up the weapons of zombies. I think you should post this in the zombie suggestions thread so hopefully someone at Treyarch will see.

[Aussienitro]

This is a fantastic idea but you made it seem too complex I think just the base idea is great so stay with that

What part of its complex? you put two guns in they average and out one comes full of ammo. Its as simple as you make it or as complex, you would have a pretty good idea what the gun will come out as but you won't know for sure until you try. Yes you'll get kids sitting in theit maths class drawing diagrams and calculating properties trying to find the ideal gun.. fuse this with that, then that, then that... but in game its not complex at all. Coding it in may well be, though it should be straight forward at least for bullet firing weapons.

This is by far the best and most original idea I have seen anywhere regarding zombies. You deserve a lot more credit for your ideas and I really hope Treyarch takes notice. If this was implemented, zombies would also become a game of creation, as people come up with their own unique weapons. Additionally, there would be an added element of discovery as people attempt to find the unique combinations. Since the addition of PaP, weapon advancement has become somewhat stagnant. As such, this idea or some other innovation that evolves the concept of PaP should be added to spice up the weapons of zombies. I think you should post this in the zombie suggestions thread so hopefully someone at Treyarch will see.

Thankyou. I tried to emphasise creation in the idea, the buildable defenses in the "document" was another way I tried to add this anything to prevent that rediculous running in circles. While I don't really expect much in the way of innovation this year, the following zombies will be most likely be released on the net gen consoles so hopefully the possibilities really open up then. I posted it to them in the mail haha, though the document doesn't elaborate on bloodline which was a bit of an afterthought.

[Cosmic SilverSkunk]

Signed up here simply to say the PAP Fusion Idea is amazing and I really hope Treyarch take notice and implement something like it! Great work.

I Think you could maybe try contacting some of the well known zombie youtube commentators and see if you can get any of them to help you promote the idea!

[Aussienitro]

I Think you could maybe try contacting some of the well known zombie youtube commentators and see if you can get any of them to help you promote the idea!

Heh yeh I did, I actually sent them the vid with their name on it before I uploaded it, but there were no takers (nor replies) they do their own thing.

[Hgoat]

Brilliant.

This cures the problem with the majority of the weapons in the game, they run out of ammo so quickly that its not worth devoting any time and money into them. If you could use that upgraded gun that is empty and inject some of its power into your new gun by "mating" it it wouldn't be all to waste. Just mate your spent SPAZ24 with a machine gun, may take a hit on power and reload time but the bucket load of ammo would make up for it.

[Rickety Cricket]

I read the PDF file and I am genuinely impressed. You're ideas are not only great but they are extremely reasonable, useful and sound fun to use. I honestly hope Treyarch sees this. You should seriously consider finding a way for them to see this.

[Tankeo Dempsaki]

Amazing idea, but has anyone considered how much memory 1300 (rounding) guns would take up? Even if they did reuse textures, it just seems like a HUGE amount of memory.

[Rickety Cricket]

Amazing idea, but has anyone considered how much memory 1300 (rounding) guns would take up? Even if they did reuse textures, it just seems like a HUGE amount of memory.

Maybe ship two discs? Idk much about that technical stuff, but couldn't they make a MP disc and a Zombies/Campaign disc in order to hold all the memory?

[Tankeo Dempsaki]

Ah, that ole idea.

[Aussienitro]

Amazing idea, but has anyone considered how much memory 1300 (rounding) guns would take up? Even if they did reuse textures, it just seems like a HUGE amount of memory.

Umm thats the beauty of BLOODLINE, and the reason it was thought up. There is no extra memory needed, or at least very little. There is already perks that change reload time, fire rate, recoil, power etc. They are not producing another gun for all of these possible combinations, just a number in the coding. The only thing needed is a distinguishing texture which is minimal, they use a tonne of camos in MP.

And the "1300" was just the first tier, now mate one of the 1300 with the other 1299+, then think about how big the 3rd tier number will be and you'll see how vast BLOODLINE is. Allows complete tuning of your gun, though still at the mercy of a random box.

[Alter72]

I say ship three, four if needed. Whatever it takes to get this freaking idea off the ground. Imagine a Wunderwaffen mixed with a AT bazooka, imagine a magnum mixed with a PM series gun, imagine double CZs plus raygun. With this genius, AND I SAY GENIUS IDEA, people can actually fine tune and create a gun that GENUINELY suits them. The main complaint is time, lack of profit, innovation blah blah blah. I don't think anyone here would hate the idea if it surfaced.

I bow in honor

[Aussienitro]

Thanks Alter72.

The BLOODLINE could be expanded on I've just given the simplest to impliment. Next gen they could be looking at making the guns truly modular, mate an AK with a L96 and you get a AK stock with L96 barrel, the actual models of each modular gun part can swap around. Problem is that would be really hard to do on "real" guns for example the magazine wells are different sizes. They would been to create a variety of models for each part. This was actually already done on borderlands, though it was all just randomly generated, barrels mags etc. swapped between guns. With Zombies I'd love them to stick with the "breeding" analogy as close as possible so you can actively create and evolve your gun not just randomly get it, nor just make it by fitting parts which is too simplistic and you would find yourself doing the same thing over and over without any real experimentaion or unknowns.

Now a couple generations down the road they can make it truly hybrid by averaging all the vertices in the modular gun part models to make the guns truly unique when fused but for now, really, I'd be perfectly content with averaged numbers.

[WhosOnFirst]

So I wanted to reply to this topic for a while, but I was not sure that I could do so in a posative light; its easy to come across as hyper critical.

Here is what I thought would be the best way. A series of questions.

1. What amount of time would it cost in man hours to implement your ideas in its most basic form.

2. What effect would it have on gameplay.

3. What are the repurcussions of implementing your idea into the game on other areas of design? Such as, memory, weapon balancing, level design.

4. Could the man hours spent implementing this idea be better used to make other changes to game mechanics, design?

5. Taking into account the average round total of the average player, do you think that such a large number of weapons choices are needed?

6. How do you feel the mystery box as a game mechanic adds to the existing structure of the game?

7. At what number do the availible weapons reach a point of saturation that no individual qualities can be attributed to them?

8. What do you personaly feel the most important core mechanic/ attribute of gameplay is to the zombie mode?

9. Do you think that the introduction of new weapons with each map pack is endearing to fans of the series?

So, I personaly like your idea, however I feel it would perhaps be better implemented in a campaing game type. This would give players an opportunity to tune weapons over a greater period of time, making a long term investment in choice and style of gameplay. I think Treyarch have played with some of the ideas you have presented here such as combining the Krauss Defib and Bowie to alter the attributes of those weopons when used together.

[Aussienitro]

Perfectly valid questions and since you took the time to think of them and write them out I'll do my best to answer all of them (even if it takes me all night :geek: ). Some I've answered before so excuse any copy and paste answers. I've also said above that I don't expect anything big this next game and likely the last of this generation console, the next.. they better have some big ideas in stall. To be honest it not my job to answer a lot of these questions because I'm not qualified to do so, but I will give an opinion which can be taken for what it is.

So I wanted to reply to this topic for a while, but I was not sure that I could do so in a posative light; its easy to come across as hyper critical.

Here is what I thought would be the best way. A series of questions.

1. What amount of time would it cost in man hours to implement your ideas in its most basic form.

I'm not a game programmer so I don't know. What I do know (regarding the FUSION guns) is that I made 9 of them, (at least modelled, textured and animated) and I had bugger all idea what I was doing just playing with the program treyarch used to make the gun models. I also recieved nothing for the trouble as I'm not a billion dollar company, so honestly I don't see new guns as a big deal. Yes the ones I done were simplistic by comparison but to someone who knows what they are doing, and making a lot of money doing it, its not too much to expect.

BLOODLINE should be a one time investment, essentially creating a template and equation that will work on the released map which can be copied through onto every subsequent release. So writing a piece of code that pulls numbers from two guns, averages them and inserts them into another, I don't see it as a big deal. It may be a case that the coding prevents easy access to this but thats impossible for me to say. What I have seen complexity in is averaging a normal bullet firing weapon with a launcher, in that case one could just say you can only mate like with like (so assault rifles/smgs/sniper rifles etc. are different breeds of same thing and can be mated, rocket launchers and grenade launcers are a breed of a different species and cannot be mated with the bullet firers) Just continuing the mating analogy. This simplifies things further so it really is just a simple averaging equation.

2. What effect would it have on gameplay.

I've answered this above but will try to re-word it. The gun system as it stands is flawed, theres really nothing to work towards and no depth in gun procession. The best guns are available straight from the start through random chance so they are never seen as an achievment. People want something to work towards and other then another round ticking over a FUSION gun would be that something. There is a requirement for more powerful guns (which coincides with the removal of "rape training" which bores me to tears) so having the ability to work towards more powerful guns in a way other then sitting at a box "hitting it" over an over to get a ray gun by random chance is a huge plus.

3. What are the repurcussions of implementing your idea into the game on other areas of design? Such as, memory, weapon balancing, level design.

As for system resource cost, I dont see a problem there either. In MP there is a limit as every gun must be loaded at all times this is not the case for zombies, the game knows what you have and whats available and can load up the next possibilities for seamless transition unlike MP where anyone at anytime can jump in with his silenced red dot jungle pattern famas or any other combination. Weapon balancing isn't an issue because as I said there is a need for more powerful guns available at a higher tier then the ray gun (though simular in effectiveness), and BLOODLINE only averages, so you are not getting a more powerful gun as you can only tune within the parameters of those already present. I can't see any changes in level design as its only using whats already there, the mystery box and PaP machine.

4. Could the man hours spent implementing this idea be better used to make other changes to game mechanics, design?

Nope, they had that chance in BO and added nothing that will hold over into BO2. Nothing I want to see held over anyway it was all a one shot gimmick unlike W@W whose additions seemed to all carry over. Well unless they want to spend their time making the buildable fort I gave in the bottom movie which I'd choose over all else, though thats even more far fetched the PaP: FUSION.

5. Taking into account the average round total of the average player, do you think that such a large number of weapons choices are needed?

Yes, if you were to use your money to take and PaP your weapons rather then hitting the box 10 times to recieve a single useful gun you go though far more weapons then you think. You would find yourself finding value in guns that you once did not, as money invested in them will carry over.

6. How do you feel the mystery box as a game mechanic adds to the existing structure of the game?

It provides the variability that prevents one doing the same thing over and over, is a necessity but it should only influence your path and not be the beginning and the end, it gives a closed and choiceless feeling.

7. At what number do the availible weapons reach a point of saturation that no individual qualities can be attributed to them?

Is that even important, or only important to the one that your have created and are holding in your hand. The "parent" weapons will always be the known standards by which breeding would begin so their individual qualities are always important so you can judge what path you should take and have some chance at predicting the outcome.

8. What do you personaly feel the most important core mechanic/ attribute of gameplay is to the zombie mode?

Thats a difficult question as I believe I'm more revolutionary then most and would like to see a complete overhaul. I'd love to say teamwork here but it really isn't, as the most effective strategy is running around in circles by yourself. I see it as a brilliant foundation for a game rather then a refined gamemode and really wish they'd experiment more. I'm just emphasising the word "creation" and hoping it has an impact so that every game you can choose a different path or tactic and giving a feeling of achievement, experimentation and strategy. I don't want to sound too critical of Treyarch as everything I've said is only building on what they have done, and actually doing something is far harder then spouting off "improvements". Still, they've baked the cake but its in real need of the icing.

9. Do you think that the introduction of new weapons with each map pack is endearing to fans of the series?

Well honestly no, I think the their value is only in the fact they are all the fans have come to expect rather then any significant advancements. A single "wonder weapon" often of limited value that can only be held by one person has grown stale on me. If you are saying fusion would take away from that single wonder weapon to the detriment of the game then no, its being replaced by something far far better and theres nothing to say they cant still swap guns in and out with each release then have people trying to find what combinations work again.

So, I personaly like your idea, however I feel it would perhaps be better implemented in a campaing game type. This would give players an opportunity to tune weapons over a greater period of time, making a long term investment in choice and style of gameplay. I think Treyarch have played with some of the ideas you have presented here such as combining the Krauss Defib and Bowie to alter the attributes of those weopons when used together.

I hadn't actually thought of the attribute change with the bowie + Krauss, good example. They had the wave gun join into something else entirely too, granted this isn't "attribute altering" but thats the difference between BLOODLINE and FUSION.

To me, its perfectly suited to the wave survival mode. What seems simple and straight forward in my mind proves difficult to write out into as many words as one would read The example in the movie is a long one but in game I'd expect you would only run strings of 2 or 3 tiers before swapping back out for a powerful gun and starting again.

Imagine starting with only one BLOODLINE tier and a leveling system that unlocks more tiers in BLOODLINE, imagine attribute modifiers being used in the BLOODLINE equation, imagine an easter egg that required a 4th tier bloodline gun and the odds someone would stumble across it. (I'm taking real easter eggs not the rewarded objectives which they have become). Imagine a name generator like the "gangsta name generator" but instead operates alongside the BLOODLINE equation giving cool gun names for your creation. It opens up a lot of room for expansion and discovery.

[Hgoat]

Well unless they want to spend their time making the buildable fort I gave in the bottom movie which I'd choose over all else, though thats even more far fetched the PaP: FUSION.

Doing that in first person would be amazing, however it got me thinking it would be a suitable substitute for "Dead Ops", as it would be a lot easier to do in 2D rather then FPS 3D. So the games played from the top down and you build up your defences. So yes its Command and Conquer but instead your barriers and defences are trying to hold back the zombie horde from demolishing your safe house. and as in dead Ops you have the controllable characters. Sounds a shit tonne better then deap Ops was anyway Experimenting with different fortifications and tactics.

[xFierce_Fighterx]

This idea is brilliant. I would like if Treyarch saw this and produced... the BLOODLINE DLC. Zombie players will love this idea, even if some are skeptical at first. Good suggestion, man!

[STOTTINMAD]

I couldn't help notice this, and be reminded of the thread you made ages ago, it is a brilliant idea by the ways Aussie. Oh and as Im at my dads, I cant see youtube videos, but was one of them guns on there the TARR115 (Temporally augmented rifle) it was something along those lines. Cos that was an idea I suggested for a weapon, I'm really happy to see you've developed this, its really good, it would be cool to see a weapon an fan made in the game.