The transition between Kino and Ascension

[Kill_All_Monkeys]

So I looked around and as far as I can tell, no one has really posted this stuff specifically. If someone has and I missed it, then I do apologize sincerely.

One thing that I do find a little annoying is when people assume Ascension takes place outside of the chronological order of the maps. I can certainly understand why people would think this, I actually did for a while myself, but then I started putting two and two together and I think I'm starting to see a bigger picture here.

Let me start off with a quote from Nikolai in Shangri La, it isn't the full quote, but that's beside the point.

"I've been wearing the same pair of underwear for two years now"

This got me thinking. How much time do you think these characters spend in each map for the story's sake? Perhaps no longer than a day, maybe two? If even that. So say starting from around Shi No Numa, this means storywise, we've only followed them for about around two weeks (factoring in the unseen transitions). So why would Nikolai talk about wearing the same clothes for two years?

I know some of you may say that maybe he just never changed clothes before this whole ordeal. But I think that when he was captured, I'm pretty they would've kept him at least somewhat groomed, especially since Richtofen grew rather fond of him.

So maybe allowing a couple months for the transition of their captivity to Numa, and then from there to Der Reise, this still would leave us with well over a year of unexplained events. I believe all this time resides between Kino and Ascension.

The characters are all a bit roughed up, outfits torn and Richtofen even wearing a space suit when they arrive at Ascension. I personally believe them arriving on a lander was really only for gameplay purposes only, but that's just me. This would imply that some interesting things may have happened since the departure from Kino, and I also believe this opens up the possibility of flashback maps, for nostalgic purposes (we could play as the old Richtofen).

The other potential usefulness this has is what this would allow for a campaign, or some kind of story mode. The possibilities this creates are practically endless. They could explain how the outbreak in America happened (as FIVE does take place at the same time as Ascension due to the red phone EE). Possibly even what may have happened at Siberia that George Romero stumbled upon years later, I don't believe they ever actually explain what was in those documents that George found. And something did happen at Cotd.

Was it during this time that Richtofen contacted Griffin Station? Did he ever visit Shang before arriving at Ascension, and seeing how it was overrun with zombies, decided to bring the group there at a later point in time? Remember, Shang's EE does involve them actually going back in time, where the focusing stone was available to obtain. I don't recall there being a confirmation on how far back in time it actually took them.

All these possibilities and unanswered question, what do you make of it?

[Tac]

It has always been my belief that we are playing on maps for MUCH longer than a day or two, I believe around 2 months or so. I could be wrong, but that is my opinion. I think that from the time Nikolai was captured until now, he has had the same pair of underwear on.

As for your idea about Kino to Ascension and things happening in between that, I agree to an extent. In Ascension we see the base of a teleporter, so it is my belief that they were experimenting with those somehow. However, it may have been just to create the Gersh Device, I can't be sure.

I like the theory though, it makes sense for the most part. I don't think they will go back and explain the outbreaks, but that is just me.

[HammerFace]

Maybe the Gersch devices interfere with the teleporters and we were brought to Ascension that way, and we start the map after having arrived and looked around a bit. it would explain why we start with a lander instead of a teleport.

[Tac]

Maybe the Gersch devices interfere with the teleporters and we were brought to Ascension that way, and we start the map after having arrived and looked around a bit. it would explain why we start with a lander instead of a teleport.

Yeah my theory is that the lander we are riding in on came from out of the map, so I think we connected to Russian teleporters and then found the lander and took it.

[deathb4di2h0nor]

Yeah I believe the time between Kino and Ascension is when Rictofen first went to the Moon. I mean, he probably knew all about his master plan during Ascension. He just chose to wait it out. The fact that the moon base is even there is still unexplained as far as I know, so Rictofen was probably there when it was built.

Looking back it was right in our face this whole time. Its Crazy. I always wondered why he had a suit and the other's didn't. Sly little..... :)

[Tac]

Yeah I believe the time between Kino and Ascension is when Rictofen first went to the Moon. I mean, he probably knew all about his master plan during Ascension. He just chose to wait it out. The fact that the moon base is even there is still unexplained as far as I know, so Rictofen was probably there when it was built.

Looking back it was right in our face this whole time. Its Crazy. I always wondered why he had a suit and the other's didn't. Sly little.....

Well, in the radios it says that Richtofen first went to Moon on January 4th, 1940 which was before Sam was in the pyramid, which we know she was in during Kino and Ascension.

[deathb4di2h0nor]

OIC....well that definitely puts a damper on things. Hmmm. Well the radio does prove that the first time he went was 1940. But he could have went back, correct? But why? I know the side quests started in Ascension. At the same time Rictofen is all of a sudden wearing a suit. Yuri is also trapped which probably ties in with this time frame. You guys know more about this than me, for sure. I am merely stating what I see. There is something that happened, that caused Rictofen to need a space suit, Yuri to get trapped, and the Master Plan to reach a breaking point.

I know Rictofen probably had some kind of plan before this time. It just seems like all of these things happening on the same map, is more than a coincidence. I could be wrong though. As I said, you guys know more about it than me.

[Tac]

OIC....well that definitely puts a damper on things. Hmmm. Well the radio does prove that the first time he went was 1940. But he could have went back, correct? But why? I know the side quests started in Ascension. At the same time Rictofen is all of a sudden wearing a suit. Yuri is also trapped which probably ties in with this time frame. You guys know more about this than me, for sure. I am merely stating what I see. There is something that happened, that caused Rictofen to need a space suit, Yuri to get trapped, and the Master Plan to reach a breaking point.

I know Rictofen probably had some kind of plan before this time. It just seems like all of these things happening on the same map, is more than a coincidence. I could be wrong though. As I said, you guys know more about it than me.

He did go back yes, many times actually from 1940-1945. However, after that we can't be sure. My theory is that the suit is one that he found in Ascension due it be a cosmodrome and he expected to go to the Moon, however that is very circumstantial and can be filled with other theories like him going to the Moon. And as a heads up, the trapped man is Gersh not Yuri. Gersh gets trapped in the late 1950's to early 1960's because he was sucked into the Gersh Device after Sam took over Yuri's mind and made him stab Gersh in the back (metaphorically speaking). What I want to understand is the importance of the Easter Egg in Ascension. Like, if Gersh was Illuminati too since we activate their symbols on the TV during the EE to save him, did he confide information in Richtofen when he realized they both were part of that organization?

[deathb4di2h0nor]

My mistake, Gersh. I agree with you so far. I still like to think he had a reason he went back. It could have merely been him checking up on things before he got started, and of no significance. It does seem odd though. Gersh is freed and "ascends" into the sky. Rictofen is wearing a space suit. The very next map, we begin his master plan.

That's where your question comes in I think. Gersh might have known about the VRIL generator, OR the focusing stone, OR both. Rictofen knew where Samantha was the whole time. Since 1940 correct? When Gersh confided in him, or slipped up, Rictofen hatched his plan. Are there any significant quotes to collaborate with this? I will begin to search, but if anyone has it handy, Rictofen's Ascension quotes are what I am referring to. Maybe as Gersh leaves Ascension? IDK.

This makes me wonder if Gersh will aid Rictofen later on in the story, or will he aid the heroes? If Gersh's reasoning is a deal with Rictofen, we may have quite a bit on our plates the next time around. If he merely slipped up, and wanted the power for himself, we may have a new hero or heroes moving into the scene.

[Kill_All_Monkeys]

Just a little note before you read, I now this is somewhat long, but I do believe I have finally been able to put some of the puzzle pieces together, and I promise it gets interesting a few paragraphs in. Enjoy.

I just realized something else. How did Richtofen know to go to Cotd to get the golden rod? I don't recall any radios ever mentioning him being there, except for the radios within Cotd. I believe this is where Richtofen took his captured test subjects once he turned on Maxis, but when would that have been?

Also, in the radios on Moon, Richtofen does contact Griffin Station while he is with Dempsey, Takeo and Nikolai. I realize this could've been during Shi No Numa or Der Reise, but those radios always came across to me as being recorded sometime around Kino or Ascension.

I do also believe Richtofen did visit Moon before Ascension, which is why he does have what suspiciously looks like the PES. I also think he went to Ascension because he wanted to use the Gersche device to get to Cotd at a specific time frame, since he had accidentally fried his other means of time travel with the DG-2. During the Cotd EE, he seemed to know that the Kassimir Mechanism would send them forward in time, just a little too far in time.

So Richtofen went to the Moon before Ascension after hearing about Sam getting trapped in there. I think he would've had to study the pyramid a bit more before devising a way to swap bodies with her.

This is so blatantly obvious now! They knew next to nothing about the MDT until they discovered souls powered it. As I recall, Richtofen was still with the group when they discovered this (possibly during when he was testing on them up through Der Reise?) So upon hearing about Samantha, he needed to go to the Moon to figure out a solution. This was all in the 40's when Samantha took control, presumably when they shot her father before her eyes.

Now when they overloaded the teleporter at Der Reise, it took them to the 1960's in Kino, right? Thus giving Sam many years of experience as a zombie god or whatever. So when Richtofen arrived at Moon after they made their way out of Kino (I'm guessing without the knowledge of the others), he saw what he needed to do to switch bodies, but the base was now presumably overrun with zombies, which is why he needed Dempsey and the others to fight their way through.

I highly doubt Richtofen would've known about needing the golden rod and the focusing stone if he had not been there prior to know they would allow him to achieve his plans. This is simple common sense. He had to have studied the pyramid with Sam in it to know that he would need these things.

He had Dempsey and them with him and while he was testing on them and wiping away their memories when Sam entered the pyramid, and presumably Shi No Numa takes place shortly after that. When he saw their potential as 115 super soldiers, he knew he could use them to gather the supplies he needed, seeing as the world was slowly being overrun by zombies now, with Sam sending every single one that she could after Richtofen.

Since the scientist had failed to pull her out of the pyramid in the 1940's, he needed to do it himself, but it would prove to be extremely difficult to do so. And this is when he developed his Grand Scheme. The rest is history.

[Tac]

Are there any significant quotes to collaborate with this? I will begin to search, but if anyone has it handy, Rictofen's Ascension quotes are what I am referring to. Maybe as Gersh leaves Ascension? IDK.

Here are the quotes for Richtofen in Ascension that relate to Gersh:

"There is so much power here already, and you need more?! I like the way you think."

"Fascinating, a dimensional rift. Goodbye Gersh, it would've been good to know you!"

"An instant handheld teleporter, Gersh the genius!"

How did Richtofen know to go to Cotd to get the golden rod? I don't recall any radios ever mentioning him being there, except for the radios within Cotd. I believe this is where Richtofen took his captured test subjects once he turned on Maxis, but when would that have been?

Also, in the radios on Moon, Richtofen does contact Griffin Station while he is with Dempsey, Takeo and Nikolai. I realize this could've been during Shi No Numa or Der Reise, but those radios always came across to me as being recorded sometime around Kino or Ascension.

In the radios he mentions a place known as Eagles Nest. Some say that that is Call of the Dead, and that is where Richtofen was when he was testing on Tank, Nikolai, and Takeo as well as making contact with Griffin Station. That was between 1942 and 1945.

I do also believe Richtofen did visit Moon before Ascension, which is why he does have what suspiciously looks like the PES.

According to the radios, we already know he went to Moon multiple times between 1940 and 1945.

I also think he went to Ascension because he wanted to use the Gersche device to get to Cotd at a specific time frame, since he had accidentally fried his other means of time travel with the DG-2. During the Cotd EE, he seemed to know that the Kassimir Mechanism would send them forward in time, just a little too far in time.

I would disagree with this based on the quotes I listed in red to deathb4di2h0nor. He seems genuinely surprised at Gersh's existance as well as the idea of the Gersh Device. As for the Casimir Mechanism, he seems like he has heard of the man who created it but is not very familiar with how it actually works.

"Casimir? Could this be related to Hendrik's work?"

"Fascinating, this Casimir Mechanism is so intruiging."

So Richtofen went to the Moon before Ascension after hearing about Sam getting trapped in there. I think he would've had to study the pyramid a bit more before devising a way to swap bodies with her.

This is so blatantly obvious now! They knew next to nothing about the MDT until they discovered souls powered it. As I recall, Richtofen was still with the group when they discovered this (possibly during when he was testing on them up through Der Reise?) So upon hearing about Samantha, he needed to go to the Moon to figure out a solution. This was all in the 40's when Samantha took control, presumably when they shot her father before her eyes.

I agree that he had to study the pyramid for a while, which was done by Groph and Schuster the second that Sam walked into the MPD and they relayed all the information to him. I agree with that quote. By the way, it is MPD not MDT.

Now when they overloaded the teleporter at Der Reise, it took them to the 1960's in Kino, right? Thus giving Sam many years of experience as a zombie god or whatever. So when Richtofen arrived at Moon after they made their way out of Kino (I'm guessing without the knowledge of the others), he saw what he needed to do to switch bodies, but the base was now presumably overrun with zombies, which is why he needed Dempsey and the others to fight their way through.

I highly doubt Richtofen would've known about needing the golden rod and the focusing stone if he had not been there prior to know they would allow him to achieve his plans. This is simple common sense. He had to have studied the pyramid with Sam in it to know that he would need these things.

I personally think he did know about needing the Focusing Stone and Golden Rod because after his first encounter with Moon he was teleported to Shangri-La for 19 days and comes back with a sudden amount of wisdom and knowledge about vril. How would that have happpened? I believe because he met the Vril-ya there and they informed him of the artifacts needed to make him a god.

[Kill_All_Monkeys]

I'm always a little unclear on this but were the scientist involved with Group 935? Because if they were then I believe that's how Richtofen would've heard about the Gersche device, he just not have know that it was called the Gersche Device or the Casimir Mechanism.

It is still quite obvious to me though that Richtofen intended to time travel to Cotd, I guess when he saw what the Casimir Mechanism could do during the events of Ascension, he probably figured that he could use it then, an in-the-moment kind of decision, so to speak.

Also I always forget about him actually being teleported to Shangri La for awhile, perhaps that is in fact where he got the knowledge to gather the focusing stone and the golden rod (which makes total sense how he would know about this since it deals with vril energy, and he possibly met the vril-ya during his visit to Shang).

And thank you for reminding me that it is the MPD, I can never remember that for some reason.

[deathb4di2h0nor]

OK.. so Rictofen was sent to Shangri La at what time? Right when I think I understand, time travel messes it up. Here's what I am thinking. Can you pick this apart and tell me where I am wrong.

After Kino, Rictofen went to Shangri-la? The vril-ya tell him of the focusing stone, but not the generator. The reason I think this, is because Rictofen says something to the notion of: " Oh, we must have gone too far into the future." Meaning his main focus was the focusing stone. This still leaves the generator unanswered. How did he know about it? Unless as you said, the crow's nest is COTD, and he knew about it way before he knew about the focusing stone.

The VR11 is also here, which does kinda hints toward testing and what-not. All the other Wonder Weapons are made for killing and destroying zombies. This one seems like their last chance of controlling them.(unsuccessful of course).

So the main story would go in chronological order, but Rictofen's adventure would go something like this:

1)SNN

2)COTD

3)Der Reise

4)Kino

5)Shangri-la

6)Moon

7)Ascension

8)COTD

9)Shangri-la

10)Moon

Crazy, I know. Just wondering if I am correct. As I said, please pick this apart and explain where I am wrong, because I really want a better understanding of how it went during this story.

[Kill_All_Monkeys]

Richtofen was at Moon and Shangri La before the events of Shi No Numa, because if you listen to the Moon radios, he wasn't crazy and didn't hear the voices in his head until he touched the MPD at Moon, which was before he thought he killed Maxis and Sam if that gives you a point of reference for time.

I also believe he went to Moon after Kino, but not Shang, at least not until he brings the others with him, before Ascension. When he arrived, he probably saw that he needed the others to complete his Grand Scheme, as well as gathering the necessary supplies.

So it probably went something loosely like this for Richtofen

1)Cotd, Moon, Shang (traveling between the three of them)

2)SNN

3)Der Reise

4)Kino

5)Moon (possibly, this is what we're discussing in this thread)

6)Ascension

7)Cotd

8)Shangri La

9)Moon

[deathb4di2h0nor]

OK, I think I get it now. But if he was at Moon so long ago, why would he go back after Kino? I bet you this area of the time line proves to be of great significance. They are hiding something in plain sight. [brains] 's to the OP for pointing this out. I know this thread has changed your theory a little, but never the less, good thread.

[Tac]

I'm always a little unclear on this but were the scientist involved with Group 935? Because if they were then I believe that's how Richtofen would've heard about the Gersche device, he just not have know that it was called the Gersche Device or the Casimir Mechanism.

What scientists? Are you referring to the one's in the Ascension Group or the one's at Griffin Station?

It is still quite obvious to me though that Richtofen intended to time travel to Cotd, I guess when he saw what the Casimir Mechanism could do during the events of Ascension, he probably figured that he could use it then, an in-the-moment kind of decision, so to speak.

I agree that he had intentions of time-traveling to Call of the Dead. Tell me if I am wrong but isn't the Casimir Mechanism the two plates on Moon that we enter the Generator and Stone into? What confuses me is that the Casimir Mechanism is on Moon yet Gersh actually built the first Casimir Mechanism prototype. That begs the question; what was the original Mechanism?

OK.. so Rictofen was sent to Shangri La at what time? Right when I think I understand, time travel messes it up. Here's what I am thinking. Can you pick this apart and tell me where I am wrong.

After Kino, Rictofen went to Shangri-la?

I mean if you really think he went to Moon after Kino I can't say that he didn't, I have no proof just a strong belief. And he went to Shangri-La after Moon in 1940.

The vril-ya tell him of the focusing stone, but not the generator. The reason I think this, is because Rictofen says something to the notion of: " Oh, we must have gone too far into the future." Meaning his main focus was the focusing stone. This still leaves the generator unanswered. How did he know about it? Unless as you said, the crow's nest is COTD, and he knew about it way before he knew about the focusing stone.

Well the VRIL Generator is an important thing to the Vril-ya so in my eyes, he knew about both of them from his visit to Shangri-La in 1940. Then over the next 5 years they built up bases at both so he could get them later on when he needed them.

The VR11 is also here, which does kinda hints toward testing and what-not. All the other Wonder Weapons are made for killing and destroying zombies. This one seems like their last chance of controlling them.(unsuccessful of course).

Well the V-R11 runs on the energy source known as VRIL Energy and it has healing power beyond anyone's belief, hence why the zombie is cured and turned back into a human. We aren't sure if he made the V-R11 there since we know there were VRIL tests in Der Riese, but George Romero explains a bit about how there was stuff going on at CoTD by Group 935.

"Years ago I did research for a World War II movie. I came across some old Nazi documents. I couldn't believe what I was reading. Element 115, necromancers, raising from the dead, real creepy stuff. The coolest thing? Some of that crazy shit happened right here."

With that, my theory of how his adventures go is like this:

1.) Der Riese (1940)

2.) Moon (1940)

3.) Shangri-La (1940)

4.) Call of the Dead (1940)

I think he was at those all throughout the beginning of the 1940's. Then his adventures are in order of the maps, based on my own personal theory.

[deathb4di2h0nor]

Well I'll take it from you as far as the order of things go. And you could be right about the space suit just being found. I just can't believe something that obvious as being different was simply him wanting to change clothes. As far as I know, the only time something didn't go with the story, is when it was put there for gameplay purposes. Again, I'm taking your word on that. It could have been Treyarch merely hinting toward Moon. But they said themselves, they were going to make a Paris map, not Moon. So why hint to a map you weren't going to make.

I'm not arguing with you, just thinking out loud I guess. I really want to understand the story and I feel like this area in time was overlooked. Not because it wasn't significant. But because we didn't know everything we know now. We have come a long way. The space suit, the kasimir, and Gersh didn't mean much then. But we have been to the Moon. Looking back at the launch facility might be a good idea.

There are a lot of things that are unexplained. What was in the missle? If you let it go, where does it go? If it goes to the Moon, where was the impact? If it hit earth, where did it impact?

[Tac]

Well I'll take it from you as far as the order of things go. And you could be right about the space suit just being found. I just can't believe something that obvious as being different was simply him wanting to change clothes. As far as I know, the only time something didn't go with the story, is when it was put there for gameplay purposes. Again, I'm taking your word on that. It could have been Treyarch merely hinting toward Moon. But they said themselves, they were going to make a Paris map, not Moon. So why hint to a map you weren't going to make.

Sadly, there are many contradictions in the story. In the Kino Loading Screen, Richtofen asks where Samantha disappeared to, but we all know that he should know because Groph and Schuster called him and told him she was on the Moon. He even responded saying watch out for Fluffy, and that isn't something you forget.

I'm not arguing with you, just thinking out loud I guess. I really want to understand the story and I feel like this area in time was overlooked. Not because it wasn't significant. But because we didn't know everything we know now. We have come a long way. The space suit, the kasimir, and Gersh didn't mean much then. But we have been to the Moon. Looking back at the launch facility might be a good idea.

I agree completely, and don't worry about arguing. Many things don't get done unless there is debate which is what we're doing now and it's rather nice haha, one of the few truly civil debates I've had in a while.

There are a lot of things that are unexplained. What was in the missle? If you let it go, where does it go? If it goes to the Moon, where was the impact? If it hit earth, where did it impact?

I think that the missile just had normal nukes since Maxis even said that they wanted to minimize the damage done. Some say that there was 115 in it, but that would refute the very quote above. The Earth in the game is kinda messed up, the continents don't look like they are where they should be, so it is difficult to tell which one's were hit.

[deathb4di2h0nor]

I guess it's up in the air at this point. As Rictofen says: "Only time will tell" ;)

[Tac]

I guess it's up in the air at this point. As Rictofen says: "Only time will tell"

Haha yeah. I mean Kino and Ascension is so open ended at this point that anyone can make any theory they want and it can't technically be disproved, know what I mean? I have no way to disprove what you believe because we don't know enough, all I can do is say my reasons for not believing it.

[deathb4di2h0nor]

And with the little experience that I have with the story-line, I can do nothing but nod and smile. :)

[Kill_All_Monkeys]

Honestly, I think Treyarch re-wrote the story a little around when Kino was the current map, because I'm assuming this is when they were working on the Paris map, and seeing as how they decided to go to the Moon, I believe they changed a few things about the plot to fit the maps better.

So really, we could all be right in our own little ways, while also being horribly wrong. As said above me, "Only time will tell".