Should the zombies AI be modified?

[Edward Richtofen]

Hi Everyone,

So I've seen a few people mentioning zombie AI in some posts and it seems like a very interesting and polarizing subject. So interesting I thought it deserved it's very own topic! (That being said sorry if there is already a topic on this, I searched but couldn't find one).

There are surely people that think zombies are too hard, too easy, or everywhere in between! Would you like to see training disappear? Would you like a completely new way to play the game? Or would like the game to stay the same? Perhaps even get easier in the next installment?

Personally I would like to see AI improvements to make the game harder. However, I don't think any play style should be completely blacklisted. I think they should make the game harder but still allow for unlimited play. (As in there's a way to keep going it just might be extremely challenging).

I definitely don't think that the game should literally become impossible at some specific round.

Now don't get me wrong, I love zombies the way it is, however to do "good" you're talking a serious time investment. I would like making it to 30 be like making it to 45 or so now. I think the added challenge would be exciting. And game time (co-op time especially) would be shortened drastically.

So that's basically my reason for hoping for improved AI. Or at least being able to choose different difficulties. What do you guys think?

[Tankeo Dempsaki]

Zombies already die when I look at them. 8-)

[Kill_All_Monkeys]

I agree that the AI should be tweaked a little to make the game slightly more challenging, but I have to say that there is nothing more satisfying than blowing an entire hoard of zombies away. Training should remain in there, but perhaps maybe only on a few maps, not all?

[Edward Richtofen]

Zombies already die when I look at them. 8-)

I wouldn't expect any less with a name as awesome as Tankeo!

And to Kill All Monkeys:

That's an interesting idea and I think I agree. There will always be the full map kiting option open, unless they make a non-connecting map which I don't think they will. But to make some maps with a lack of circling spots would give us that verruckt-style gameplay again, and I'm all for it!

[MegaAfroMan]

Plenty of spots to circle in Verruckt if you know where to look

I think that the AI should be tweaked a little. Make it harder earlier, but they need to find someway to inject excitement into those later rounds. After 40 there isn't much you can do. The only worthwhile guns are the insta-kill Wonder Weapons.

[Edward Richtofen]

Plenty of spots to circle in Verruckt if you know where to look

I think that the AI should be tweaked a little. Make it harder earlier, but they need to find someway to inject excitement into those later rounds. After 40 there isn't much you can do. The only worthwhile guns are the insta-kill Wonder Weapons.

Hmmmm lets see....Thompson room, above Thompson room, STG room. I count three but the last 2 are near impossible to maintain for any extended period of time unless your 1/2 man, 1/2 codimal.

I agree that later rounds could use a spice up. Pretty much stuck either using traps or a wonder weapon. At the same time though that's when it takes a lot more teamwork in co-op games as now both players can't kill their hoards by themselves.

I think that's what made COTD so interesting, the VR-11 gave co-op teams a unique way to go as high as they wanted but at the same time took lots of skill and teamwork to pull it off. Of course at the same time that map screwed over solo players.

I was actually just about to write that solo players have no way of killing late hoards. Then realized that in theory they could use the flipper although it doesn't sound easy at all. Have any solo players tried developing a flipper strategy?

Anyways, I hope there's more things like the VR-11 included in BO II.

[Kill_All_Monkeys]

Another possible solution to this problem is maybe instead of having bosses almost every round, boss zombies won't even appear until say round 25 (just using this as an example). Maybe drop a George type zombie into the map at that point.

Or maybe, if there are more than two types of zombies on a map, that they actually have a different zombie type every round, but only that type of zombie will spawn that round.

Just to use this as an example, look at Shangri-La. One round would be regular zombies, the next round would be Shriekers, the one after that could be monkeys, then finally Napalm zombies. And then the cycle could repeat itself from there, maybe even changing it up every once in a while.

[Death_Angel]

I'd say that they should tweak the AI to make it challenging but also fix some of the somewhat annoying issues like no matter on which platform i'm playing whether it be xbox, ps3, or on pc they always seem to attack me multiple times and their arms are only swinging once, and sometimes they are able to hit me and they are not even a mere feet close to me, and i always pay a close attention to these things cause i see it happen to other players as well. So the AI should definitively require tweaking but still make it challenging. I noticed that in Black ops I don't know if its on every map but on like Ascension they seem to avoid getting shot at by either stopping and moving over or dropping and rolling forward. Maybe it would be much of a challenge if some of them decide to outsmart us if the map allows them, they would run the opposite direction and simple run around only to trap us from the other direction in which we might be heading.

[The Clay Bird]

Plenty of spots to circle in Verruckt if you know where to look

I think that the AI should be tweaked a little. Make it harder earlier, but they need to find someway to inject excitement into those later rounds. After 40 there isn't much you can do. The only worthwhile guns are the insta-kill Wonder Weapons.

Hmmmm lets see....Thompson room, above Thompson room, STG room. I count three but the last 2 are near impossible to maintain for any extended period of time unless your 1/2 man, 1/2 codimal.

I agree that later rounds could use a spice up. Pretty much stuck either using traps or a wonder weapon. At the same time though that's when it takes a lot more teamwork in co-op games as now both players can't kill their hoards by themselves.

I think that's what made COTD so interesting, the VR-11 gave co-op teams a unique way to go as high as they wanted but at the same time took lots of skill and teamwork to pull it off. Of course at the same time that map screwed over solo players.

I was actually just about to write that solo players have no way of killing late hoards. Then realized that in theory they could use the flipper although it doesn't sound easy at all. Have any solo players tried developing a flipper strategy?

Anyways, I hope there's more things like the VR-11 included in BO II.

sounds like a good idea in theory, however the flipper doesn't kill any zombies, simply respawns them...

to address the thread, I do think there should be, and will be some variances in the AI. The important thing for the zombies team is that the basic premise of the gameplay MUST stay the same... thats what made cod zombies the cult hit that it is. I do think they can continue to introduce new "types" of zombies that may have alternate AI that can throw a wrench in the gears of a kite strategy. maybe not as drastic as a george, but stuff like the shrieker zombie etc...

[Superhands]

I've always been a fan of the phrase, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I'm dreading the day the game is changed too much - changing the AI would be too much.

[Stop Mocking Me0]

Ok so cod black ops 2 will have multiple modes for zombies correct? Why not just have a mode with a harder ai?

[deathb4di2h0nor]

Thought I would throw my two cents in. :geek:

In theory, Treyarch is already implementing changes throughout the zombie AI on almost every map. I see the first map implementing all of these changes for an extra challenge, regardless of where the map ends up being. I will explain what I mean by changes:

Kino: First map for zombies to be able to slap you through the windows.

Ascension: Zombies begin to side-step, roll, duck & dodge.

COTD: New zombie speed implemented via George. (Sprinters)

Moon: Offers a mixture of most implementations, as well as the jump pads changing the hoard's directions and speed.

NML: Completely different play style with increased health speed.

.

I believe they ARE in fact changing the AI as we know it. They are doing it in a fasion, however, that leaves it feeling normal. Will we see changes in the zombie AI? Sure. I wouldn't worry too much though, it will feel right.

[FatedTitan]

Actually, I believe the Sprinters in CotD were first seen in Verruckt.

[The Clay Bird]

Thought I would throw my two cents in. :geek:

In theory, Treyarch is already implementing changes throughout the zombie AI on almost every map. I see the first map implementing all of these changes for an extra challenge, regardless of where the map ends up being. I will explain what I mean by changes:

Kino: First map for zombies to be able to slap you through the windows.

Ascension: Zombies begin to side-step, roll, duck & dodge.

COTD: New zombie speed implemented via George. (Sprinters)

Moon: Offers a mixture of most implementations, as well as the jump pads changing the hoard's directions and speed.

NML: Completely different play style with increased health speed.

.

I believe they ARE in fact changing the AI as we know it. They are doing it in a fasion, however, that leaves it feeling normal. Will we see changes in the zombie AI? Sure. I wouldn't worry too much though, it will feel right.

yeah, obviously the AI is changing gradually as new things are added/taken out from map to map. I think that's a given, seems that the OP was more alluding towards drastic change in the basic zombies AI. it seems almost everybody is in agreement that we dont' want any drastic change lol

[Tankeo Dempsaki]

Thought I would throw my two cents in. :geek:

In theory, Treyarch is already implementing changes throughout the zombie AI on almost every map. I see the first map implementing all of these changes for an extra challenge, regardless of where the map ends up being. I will explain what I mean by changes:

Kino: First map for zombies to be able to slap you through the windows.

Ascension: Zombies begin to side-step, roll, duck & dodge.

COTD: New zombie speed implemented via George. (Sprinters)

Moon: Offers a mixture of most implementations, as well as the jump pads changing the hoard's directions and speed.

NML: Completely different play style with increased health speed.

.

I believe they ARE in fact changing the AI as we know it. They are doing it in a fasion, however, that leaves it feeling normal. Will we see changes in the zombie AI? Sure. I wouldn't worry too much though, it will feel right.

Those are not governed by the zombies' AI, those are simply new features/commands. AI would change when zombies do things or how they move and whatnot, it doesn't control things like that.

However, I've noticed that on Shang and Ascension thhat they are smarter in how fast they attack you.

[MegaAfroMan]

Thought I would throw my two cents in. :geek:

In theory, Treyarch is already implementing changes throughout the zombie AI on almost every map. I see the first map implementing all of these changes for an extra challenge, regardless of where the map ends up being. I will explain what I mean by changes:

Kino: First map for zombies to be able to slap you through the windows.

Ascension: Zombies begin to side-step, roll, duck & dodge.

COTD: New zombie speed implemented via George. (Sprinters)

Moon: Offers a mixture of most implementations, as well as the jump pads changing the hoard's directions and speed.

NML: Completely different play style with increased health speed.

.

I believe they ARE in fact changing the AI as we know it. They are doing it in a fasion, however, that leaves it feeling normal. Will we see changes in the zombie AI? Sure. I wouldn't worry too much though, it will feel right.

Actually I believe starting with Verruckt they could hit you through windows. Sprinters were also in Verruckt as well. They took it out from Shi no numa and Der Riese. And (as far as I know) only in Ascension the zombies combat roll, so it is really more of a map specific quirk than a subtle change in AI, because it didn't affect the later maps. Since Verruckt and Kino, there really has not been much change in the AI of zombies. Even Kino didn't have much AI change, just more physics changes, like the ability to jump over zombies, or not get "dragged" by their presence.

[Fishbertus]

I believe that the zombie AI should be greatly increased.

Now that we know for a fact that a human, infact a genius (although Edward, you are crazy) is controlling the Zs, the AI should be much better. Zombies is fun for the first 30 rounds. Then after that its all about camping or rape training. Guns don't even hurt Zs after round 45, you could put a whole mag of any non-wonder weapon/ non mustang and sally, and they won't die.

I believe the way it should work is that the zombies start out stupid and get smarter. But the guns also have to get better. And your perks, etc..

It should ALWAYS be a challenge to survive in zombies after round 10.

Right now zombie AI works practically like this: The zombie spawns, follows a precoded path to get out of the barrier, and then walks straight to the player, with a little delay. If it can not get to you, it will follow another precoded path. A simple form of path finding.

I think by round 20 they should start flanking you (most of the zombies come straight at you, others sneak up behind you. They should also get faster when they need to.

If these simple ideas are added, like having infinite packapunch ability, but costing VERY expensive each time, like 5x the previous tier, then zombies will always be a challenge, but not impossible.

[bbobs2]

I believe the way it should work is that the zombies start out stupid and get smarter. But the guns also have to get better. And your perks, etc..

It should ALWAYS be a challenge to survive in zombies after round 10.

Right now zombie AI works practically like this: The zombie spawns, follows a precoded path to get out of the barrier, and then walks straight to the player, with a little delay. If it can not get to you, it will follow another precoded path. A simple form of path finding.

I think by round 20 they should start flanking you (most of the zombies come straight at you, others sneak up behind you. They should also get faster when they need to.

I do agree with this and zombies should become smarter (BRILL idea BTW) but I'm not sure that from a programming/gaming point of view that them coming from infront is possible without their being a triggered event (so you walk through that door and there is a zombie leaping at you) or as part of a cutscene. If this did happen it would probably lead to the same strategy we have now. Move out the way and make them follow us.

In a way at the moment the zombies are meant to be flanking us but all we do is stop them flanking us (by moving out the way) and then 'playing' with the programming making them follow us.

I do like the idea of them coming from behind but the need to be fast enough/quiet enough to do this. They could always do more teleporting zombies to flank us. Them annoying transporting crawlers in Moon are one of my main reasons for going down because they are unpredictable.

This is one of the reasons I think Treyarch have put in zombies crawling out of the floor or from the ceiling & the excavators on moon in a way these 'flank' us making us change strategy extremely quickly and this has caused a lot of criticism because of this.

I would like zombies AI to be changed in some way but for me it is actually the events and map structure that I want to see the biggest change to. Every map has enabled training of some sort whether that's a whole map one of just a quick run around.

Maybe have an ever changing maze map (I've put it in another topic) so basically you have no idea what's going to happen/sudden changes to map & our play style.

Also like Fishbertus said there ALWAYS needs to be a challenge in zombies. Whether it's round 1-1000 there needs to be something. (putting in things we can't control e.g. changes in map/weapons maybe a completely new map layout (change of layout) whenever you start a new game.)

Anyway. With 4v4 modes we shouldn't get the time to train around.

AI could be changed in some way but the main difference should be in the map structure and possibly adding different map/time events that can effect the way the map is played.

PS sorry for a big read....

[Tankeo Dempsaki]

Someone around here said that on his half-price WAW Der Riese when he tried to train the zombies they spread out and tried to come up behind him, surrounding him in the front as well. Could anyone else who got WAW Der Riese confirm this?

[Jbird]

I went them to change how to zombies are a bit. I don't want it to be like survival mode where the zombies would be "smart" and take different routes. Maybe just make so that all the zombies can't cluster together into a small pile. Make it so they have to have more space from eachother. That would make it a bit more difficult and better IMO