Zombies is Changing for the Worse

[ETEl2NAL407]

I have been playing Zombies since Black Ops 1. I grew tired of the overly competetive players in the Multiplayer lobbies and had always been intrigued by this 'Zombies' that I saw on my menu screen, so one day I decided to check this mysterious 'Zombies' thing out. I had no idea what to do, but I soon learned and I loved it.

It's so much fun to slaughter the undead and watch blood spew from them. When I discovered 'crawlers' I couldn't have been happier or so I thought. Not until I played with a random who really knew how to play did I even learn about the perk machines and I said to him as we were playing, "Holy crap, so you mean this mode is not intended to end at round 10?!" as that was the highest I could ever go.

The point is that Zombies is challenging, especially to the new player because there's no tutorial, no clear signs of what to do, no instruction book that tells you to buy doors or buy perks to prolong your rounds and definitely no directions on how to access the Pack-a-Punch machine. The challenge comes in cooperating with your team mates, making smart decisions with your points, choosing the right weapons and perks at the right times, discovering how to get around the map, and unlocking all the little secrets.

The trend in BO:1 was to make the maps more challenging, make the secrets more complicated, add or subtract perks and guns, and keep the Zombie waves the same. So, discovering the map and the secrets became more challenging, but players got better and better at controlling and mastering the zombies. To break this monotony, we were gifted with new and exciting toys (weapons and perks), like PhD Flopper, the Scavenger, etc..

Everything was great...WAS.

With Black Ops 2 we see the incorporation of game modes, like TranZit and Die Rise, now Mob of the Dead. These are more or less campaigns for Zombies. Ok, sounds like it won't be that bad. It isn't...It's only regular zombies with equipment we must build and use to unlock the secrets, oh and some weapons. Wait what? So I have to do more than just buy a door to get to a weapon? I'm not liking this, but ok. If you didn't catch that I was mainly referring to the Galvaknuckles of TranZit.

That's bearable enough, but Die Rise (the mode that first tickled my "uh-oh" button) messed with our perk machines. So, we have to turn the power on AND wait for the elevator to bring us the perk? This is not good. Treyarch is beginning to make the perks a bigger challenge to get. Oh and if I don't time it right, PaP might eat my gun...Great, now I can lose 2 toys at once, not cool at all.

Finally we have Mob of the Dead (the beginning of the end) and our doors have become more expensive...Grrr. But what's worse is that getting all those points to buy the doors doesn't give me a power switch or a perk. it gives me another challenge to acquire my perk. Ok stop everything! So, you're telling me I have to survive waves of zombies, discover the secrets of the map, buy all the doors, AND do crazy stuff to get my perks? No...there's more. There's also this zombie that hits really hard and comes every few rounds who will "lock" the perk you just unlocked, so you have to spend more points to use it, and he doesn't go down that easy unless you spam him with headshots.

Treyarch has gone too far. This whole "making the perks a challenge to get" thing has gone far enough. First they throw them in elevators, now they do this. Perks are not supposed to be this hard to acquire, they already cost points, we already have to buy doors to get to them, and we used to have to find a power switch before we could use them. That's enough!

The game modes I haven't mentioned in detail yet, but I am about to. Let's compare the maps the game shipped with in BO:1 vs. BO:2.

BO:1 was Kino Der Toten, one zombie mode: survival. Here we had doors to open, perks to acquire, the mystery box to gamble with, a teleporter to access PaP with, and some secrets scattered throughout like the meteors and the song, the movie reels, etc..

BO:2 was Green Run, game modes: TranZit, survival, and Grief. Survival mode gives us easy access to our toys, but doesn't give us the secrets and chops our map into little pieces, TranZit allows us to get the secrets and our toys and keeps our map full, Grief is just Grief.

Why am I comparing? To illustrate the main difference: this game mode design. We see the trend continue in BO:2 with the game modes. The secrets are now turning into campaign quests and, though this makes the game a bit more interesting, it's not needed. Look at the success of BO:1's DLC. Treyarch didn't need to single out the secrets into a game mode, just leave it be and let the players decide if they do or don't want to go after the secret. Instead, we're almost being forced to choose...Choose the game mode and go for the secrets/campaign quests or don't. Really, if we compare the survival maps of BO:2 against the survival maps of BO:1, BO:1 wins easily.

This is not at all the zombies I have come to love and enjoy. This direction vexes me.

I understand tha everyone loved the EE quests that became more prominent in later DLC of BO:1 and that Treyarch is thinking they should expand on that aspect of the game, but not like this. Instead of doing what they've done and making our toys as much a part of the secret as finding all the parts, they should have just left the maps a one-size fits all. If you want to go after the secret, do it, if you don't then just grab your toys and settle in to slaughter some freakbags. Instead we've lost the ability to settle in and slaughter. Now you have to do some questing in order to settle in and slaughter...Boo.

I'd have much more liked to see them incorporate weapon upgrades based off experience. Just like you do in Multiplayer, but you don't get to choose your load out. You still start with the M1911, but if you love to grab the M16 as soon as possible and you have some experience points, I'd like to be able to spend my points and make the M16 better, add an attachment, boost the accuracy and/or damage, pick a new camo or skin for it, etc.. Now when I buy it off the wall, it has all those extras I've invested experience points into. What's even better is this system is already in place, it would just require a few modifications to translate effectively into the Zombie world.

So, in conclusion. I dislike the direction zombies is headed. I don't think we should seperate the secrets and quests by game mode and I strongly disagree with incorporating our perks into the quests. I think it should all be lumped into the same mode (excluding Grief) and players should be able to choose what they want out fo their Zombie experience. If they just want to kill and try to last as long as possible, let them have their perks, let them find a spot, and let them challenge their self. If they want to search for the secrets and just kill for points as they need to, let them make that choice in the same game.

[Chopper]

Amen brother.

I know MOTD inside out now, and it took me 50 minutes to get all 4 perks, Vitrolic and Spork....and I was on round 15.

I have spent a lot of time just on the start of this map to suss out the best way to start, and the above is as good as it gets. Maybe you could save 5 minutes, not much more.

Picking everything up and visiting most locations only once.

15 rounds in 50 minutes? WTF.

That is not zombies.

Please please please please please Treyarch give us one more simple map like Kino or Der Reise, the ultimate 2 maps.

Where you can get in, get balls deep and start ****ing slaying. No more of this collect 10 pieces of whatever, just give us a good, old fashioned slaying map.

Chopper out.

[ETEl2NAL407]

Please please please please please Treyarch give us one more simple map like Kino or Der Reise, the ultimate 2 maps.

You're still pleading. I'm of the mind that if they don't make a huge course correction with the next DLC, I'm trading in my BO:2 copy and writing them a letter, season pass be damned.

[TheBSZombie]

Amen brother.

I know MOTD inside out now, and it took me 50 minutes to get all 4 perks, Vitrolic and Spork....and I was on round 15.

I have spent a lot of time just on the start of this map to suss out the best way to start, and the above is as good as it gets. Maybe you could save 5 minutes, not much more.

Picking everything up and visiting most locations only once.

15 rounds in 50 minutes? WTF.

That is not zombies.

Please please please please please Treyarch give us one more simple map like Kino or Der Reise, the ultimate 2 maps.

Where you can get in, get balls deep and start ****ing slaying. No more of this collect 10 pieces of whatever, just give us a good, old fashioned slaying map.

Chopper out.

How does it take you 50 mins to do 15 rounds? you can get jug in the first 6 rounds with 2 dogs fed? sorry to tell you, your doing it wrong....

[Cushy]

I also agree, I dislike having to do so much mucking around in order just get my perks and start owning some zombies I.e purgatory, waiting around for the bus, building turbines or trample steams etc. I would like the "one size fits all" kind of zombies you mentioned, where if I wanted to participate in the EEs I could (after all, I do actually enjoy learning about the story) but not be forced into building stuff in order to just play the game.

With zombies heading in this direction I think I'll just stick to the most basic stuff as possible and leave the EEs for the hardcore guys and just read about it after they've done all the work.

P.S Sorry if I sound shallow-minded or like a brat.

[ETEl2NAL407]

Amen brother.

I know MOTD inside out now, and it took me 50 minutes to get all 4 perks, Vitrolic and Spork....and I was on round 15.

I have spent a lot of time just on the start of this map to suss out the best way to start, and the above is as good as it gets. Maybe you could save 5 minutes, not much more.

Picking everything up and visiting most locations only once.

15 rounds in 50 minutes? WTF.

That is not zombies.

Please please please please please Treyarch give us one more simple map like Kino or Der Reise, the ultimate 2 maps.

Where you can get in, get balls deep and start ****ing slaying. No more of this collect 10 pieces of whatever, just give us a good, old fashioned slaying map.

Chopper out.

How does it take you 50 mins to do 15 rounds? you can get jug in the first 6 rounds with 2 dogs fed? sorry to tell you, your doing it wrong....

I understand you're only trying to help (hopefully) and not trying to berate others for having a hard time with MotD and just disliking the functionality of it, but please put any 'how-to' discussions into a strategy guide thread. This is for the discussion of how much Treyarch is ruining Zombies.

I'll also comment on some of the remarks made by other users regarding MotD, sine TheBSZombie stirred that hornet's nest. Many of you are shaking your head at the few that dislike this new map and claiming we "just don't know how to play it". Some use choice words, I saw one say, "get your heads out of your butts", others are offering us quick strategies to try and help. The help is appreciated, for sure, the choice words don't deserve to be dignified with comment, but the bottom line is not that we don't know how to play. I could play MotD and get better. I choose not to because there's a deeper reason behind my disdain of MotD...Read the OP and you'll see why.

[xiRoNiCzZ]

it seems like treyarch are trying to hard to out do the last map they put out, making each map they come up with better are more challenging then the last, but they forget the reason why alot of peeps loved zombies in the first place.

black ops 2 zombies has a whole new feel to it i rekon, its more bout stratergy now then just skill.

only time i said "keep the last zombie" in black ops 1 was when i needed a drink or something lol now in black ops 2 i find im sayin "keep the last zombie" 10x more then i used to, and not because i need a drink, but because i actualy need to do something in the game e.i pack-a-punch/get a perk.

& the actualy survival maps (town & farm) are sh**t u get bored of dem str8 away

tbh i dnt mind all this new stuff, but i can jst see were its heading in the future :/ if each map they try to out do the last 1, by the last map pack zombies aint gna be like ziombies at all :/

think on the nxt dlc (or 1 after) treyarch shud jst take a step bk & go bk to basics and put out a new decent survival maps for people who love zombies for that reason xD

[Cushy]

on the nxt dlc (or 1 after) treyarch shud jst take a step bk & go bk to basics and put out a new decent survival maps

I like that idea, it shouldn't be to hard for Trollarch, after all, some of us want less. Or maybe bring back an older map but as a possible idea a new room with a new gun;Probably contradicting myself there but I'm not asking for anything like TranZit.

Hopefully Trollarch are able to find a nice balance with content with the next DLC.

Once again, sorry if I sound a like a brat or anything like that.

[nayrcraig]

Personally I disagree, I like having new challenges and even some small objectives like feeding the dogs to get the hells retriever.

I also loved playing Der Riese and Kino back in W@W and BO but now I want some thing different, not more of the same. Having challenges to get perks make the game more interesting and fun for me and having to play without perks while I wait to get another afterlife to turn them on or enough points to unlock them after the wardens been on his run is a good thing for me, makes thing a bit different each game.

Having the doors cost more makes me concentrate on getting points at the start of games and think more about were I really want to go and what I really want to get. Holding off hoards of zombies while waiting for a perk to come down the elevator is better for me than getting a perk then kitting the zombies for the rest of the round,

But maybe I find fun in different things and what I like isn't in the spirit of zombies but Regardless I want zombies to keep getting harder and I want there to be more to do than just, turn on power, get perks and guns from one spot, kill zombies. If they kept making the same sort of maps I would have got board.

[ETEl2NAL407]

I understand what you mean, nayrc. I can see how these quests make the game more interesting and I don't disagree, it could get boring, but making the perks harder to get is not making things more interesting, just overly complicated. Why not just add different perks? Even better, we could make some perks part of the quest...some, not all.

The problem is not the intent of Treyarch, I get what they're trying to do: exactly what fans like you want. More stuff to do, things to keep it interesting, but they're only making fans like you happy. There are other fans that don't want to sacrifice the functionality of the map, like Chopper said, "Where you can get in, get balls deep and start ****ing slaying." for some quest that makes it more interesting. I can find my interest in the new map layout, the new perk machines, the new guns...I don't need a side quest, but it is nice to have one in case I get bored of slaying.

Unfortunately, Treyarch is going by the inverse of that thought. The side quest is a must, slaying is secondary. Worse even, the functionality that makes long-term slaying possible has been included into the quest, so I effectiely cannot choos to play MotD and just slay. It would be like having 4 basketballs, 3 of which are fully inflated, but I choose to play with the deflated one. If slaying is basketball and the maps are the balls, MotD would be the deflated one.

Bottom line is that the way Treyarch is indirectly forcing us to do these side-quests is getting in the way of pure slaying akin to the BO:1 and earlier maps. The quests have always come second to the slaying, until now.

[Chopper]

How does it take you 50 mins to do 15 rounds? you can get jug in the first 6 rounds with 2 dogs fed? sorry to tell you, your doing it wrong....

I don't do zombies wrong, I wouldn't have posted if I didn't know the map. I know it inside out, where every part is and how to collect them in a specific order to not waste time. I actually had all 3 dogs fed and Jugg on round 4. Doing the spork as well is what takes all the time.

[TheBSZombie]

I promise I wasn't trying to disrespect anyone and im sure chopper of all people will be able to get this map down. I really believe this map is very easy. it just takes time to learn. my friend got #10 in the leaderboards on mob of the dead. round 70 something. but had 30 downs, its easy to recover from a down and get jug. how he did it 20+ times in a row, don't ask me but he did. I like the challenge of the perk system. i promise you the jug in town is much harder to get then the one in motd. 3 spawns are located in that building. only 1 by the jug in motd. speed cola is a pain in the arse to get in motd. if they had switched up the two i would have completely agreed with you.

[Tasty Applesauce]

This thread is blasphemous. Zombies has only continued to improve, these new maps are amazing, MoTD in particular which could possibly be the greatest map in creation.

Simple maps with not much to do or places to go are boring. Der Reise was cool but now all anybody does is camp out in the building with the teleporter and the BAR, kino you just ran around in circles, these new maps keep you moving, its always exciting and tonnes more challenging with much more to do.

just play survival or grief if you want that small map feel.

[Chopper]

The thing is Tasty, this map is ultimately the same, after getting setup.

So in the game I'm talking about, that means 4 perks, Meat Grinder and Vitrolic, with the Spork.

I can then camp in the DT room until round 30, and then go and run circles in either the acid room, or the wardens office, or the docks etc.

I actually enjoyed collecting the stuff the first few games, but once you have played the map a few times it just becomes a complete ball ache.

I really like the new map, but I still want an old style BO map to come onto the new engine that is BO2.

[TheBSZombie]

The thing is Tasty, this map is ultimately the same, after getting setup.

So in the game I'm talking about, that means 4 perks, Meat Grinder and Vitrolic, with the Spork.

I can then camp in the DT room until round 30, and then go and run circles in either the acid room, or the wardens office, or the docks etc.

I actually enjoyed collecting the stuff the first few games, but once you have played the map a few times it just becomes a complete ball ache.

I really like the new map, but I still want an old style BO map to come onto the new engine that is BO2.

I agree with you. but i haven't had the problem yet. While playing the second time through i thought, this is going to be a pain in the ass in a month. but I disregarded that and told myself hey, if i have that mentality i will not be able to enjoy zombies. so right now im enjoying it. Im kind of glad that i didn't get into the forums till the end of tranzit because reading all the hate could have really affected my love of the mpa :cry: but its all good. :D

[ETEl2NAL407]

I didn't want to have to say it like this, but since this thread has now been labeled "blasphemous" I feel I must...

BO:2 is for fanboys. Plain and simple. The reason so many out there like this new map and think it's the greatest is because of the quests, but Zombies did not start out with these quests, they've been added in as the Zombie popularity grew. Treyarch is thinking the quests make Zombies popular, so they're modeling their new maps to please these quest seeking fanboys and alienating the true slayer fans in the process.

This is the real blasphemy.

It's so clear to me, but I suppose the fanboys won't be able to see it. For example:

Alluva sudden we have illuminated parts in MotD, big difference from the parts in TranZit and Die Rise. So, it's Treyarch saying, "Here's the part, get it." and furthermore you're given a list of all the parts on your game ending screen. They're telling you what parts you need. They're obviously wanting you to do the quest, making the quests easier, actually.

Coming from a quest seeking fanboy's eyes, that's awesome. I get that, you're a fanboy, you like the quests, you're happy, but your happiness has cost me my enjoyment because I can't play MotD and just slay, I have to do some quest related things in order to get the setup I need for slaying. Such a shame because I really do like how MotD looks, I don't entirely mind the map's layout, either...It's not the easiest for slaying, but it could be worked around. Now we add in the perk issue and it's broken. It's not impossible, but it's so much bullshit effort that I'd much rather just play TranZit or any of the awesome maps from BO:1.

So, go ahead fanboys. Revel in your victory. Zombies won't be the first thing you've destroyed for the real fans.

[TheBSZombie]

That hurts...

Well you don't have to do the spork, the perks are just a one time thing per game that takes just a few seconds of your time, and there are training areas all over the place. you don't have to do the shield. the only thing you "have" to do is build the pack a punch. which in die rise and tranzit people were saying it was to easy to do.

[Chopper]

I really agree with Eternal on this one.

The spork is so necessary to make high rounds easy, but you have to understand the map to get it, and know exactly how to play to get it in a reasonable time.

Try doing the roof dog for instance on round 20. A simple way to do it is by saving 6 zombies or so, but with the respawning system on damaged zombies, it becomes too complicated to work out.

The only challenge that I feel I personally have left on this map on solo is how quickly I can get the spork. I'm guessing about round 8 or 9, but the thing is to get it so early, i would have to sacrifice more than likely my free blunder, and not be able to PAP the DM as well.

Too many points required unless you get the blunder and DM from the box first hit.

You should not have to do sooooo much just to get into a game and get fully setup.

[ETEl2NAL407]

You should not have to do sooooo much just to get into a game and get fully setup.

The short and sweet way to illustrate my major complaint with MotD. Because it is this way, I can only logically conclude that it was by design. If that's the design of this map than I must also conlclude that this map was not designed for getting setup to slay, but for doing the quests as a team. In conclusion, if you're following me, that means Treyarch has designed a map to pigeon hole the players into working together to accomplish the quests. So, what do we do after we've completed them? Oh, you didn't think of that, Treyarch?

Whoever is saying these quests make the map more interesting misses the bigger picture...What will this map offer after your quests are done? It's not designed for anything but doing quests. Replayability is dead.

[Rissole25]

Halfish agree. While I do like the current maps, I agree on the straight up killing over task.

I shouldn't have to waste 5 minutes on opening PaP in Tranzit every time, than you also have that chance (30% of the time for me) that will close when you get there, taking another 5 minute run with the same chance of it closing again.

I haven't played MOTD, but I shouldn't have to build a plane and such to get to PaP. No matter how easy it is, why should I have to look around the map for parts. It was simple in BO1 with just turning on the power.

I think the main problem is that they are starting to make and hinge things on crawlers/last zombie. That was only for the Mystery Box, and you could still do that mid round easily. It than was also for the Easter egg which is understandable because you don't HAVE to do it at all. Now you have to use it to traverse around the map basicially (Tranzit, Die Rise), waiting for dynamic events (Bus, Elevator, CotD PaP though that wasn't much of an issue), building things (you don't really ever build something during the round).

I just think if things didn't rely on the last zombie, it would be even more enjoyable.

[xiRoNiCzZ]

Hopefully Trollarch are able to find a nice balance with content with the next DLC.

exactly! they need to find a even balance between the 2 were u can do all these lil quest fings if u choose to or if u preffure not to u can jst beast out xD

[nayrcraig]

I didn't want to have to say it like this, but since this thread has now been labeled "blasphemous" I feel I must...

BO:2 is for fanboys. Plain and simple. The reason so many out there like this new map and think it's the greatest is because of the quests, but Zombies did not start out with these quests, they've been added in as the Zombie popularity grew. Treyarch is thinking the quests make Zombies popular, so they're modeling their new maps to please these quest seeking fanboys and alienating the true slayer fans in the process.

This is the real blasphemy.

It's so clear to me, but I suppose the fanboys won't be able to see it. For example:

Alluva sudden we have illuminated parts in MotD, big difference from the parts in TranZit and Die Rise. So, it's Treyarch saying, "Here's the part, get it." and furthermore you're given a list of all the parts on your game ending screen. They're telling you what parts you need. They're obviously wanting you to do the quest, making the quests easier, actually.

Coming from a quest seeking fanboy's eyes, that's awesome. I get that, you're a fanboy, you like the quests, you're happy, but your happiness has cost me my enjoyment because I can't play MotD and just slay, I have to do some quest related things in order to get the setup I need for slaying. Such a shame because I really do like how MotD looks, I don't entirely mind the map's layout, either...It's not the easiest for slaying, but it could be worked around. Now we add in the perk issue and it's broken. It's not impossible, but it's so much bullshit effort that I'd much rather just play TranZit or any of the awesome maps from BO:1.

So, go ahead fanboys. Revel in your victory. Zombies won't be the first thing you've destroyed for the real fans.

Well maybe I am a fanboy...but what does that mean,

What is a fanboy?

Is it a bad thing?

and why am I a fan boy for liking the changes they are making to the maps?

[ETEl2NAL407]

Well maybe I am a fanboy...but what does that mean,

What is a fanboy?

Is it a bad thing?

and why am I a fan boy for liking the changes they are making to the maps?

Fanboy Definition per Wikipedia

I use the term loosely. To me, it means someone that has jumped onto a bandwagon and becomes loyal immediately. I've been a fan of Zombies since BO:1, but I don't think Zombies was half as popular then as it is now and that's because of the fanboys. Based on that definition we could say the fanboy line is drawn between the questers (the fanboys) and the slayers (the OG fans). Whereas I want a zombie game with less questing and more slaying, a fanboy would tell me my thread is blasphemous because I don't like the quests. I don't dislike the quests, I just think they're overtaking and hurting the slaying.

Are you a fanboy? Well, based off the fact that you like the quests, that definition, and the possibility that there is a line in the sand between questers and slayers, then yes, but only you can answer the question honestly. Is it bad? If you ask a fanboy, no, but if you ask a true fan that's been the victim of fanboys influencing what he loves, then yes...He would say, "Fanboys suck."

[Edward Richtofen]

If you don't like the game then don't play it. Treyarch can make the game however they want. Calling people fanboys because they disagree with you is retarded. We're all fans of zombies here...otherwise we wouldn't be here.

So why don't you put in blops 1 and stop your whining. You seem to dislike the direction blops 2 has taken but guess what? Treyarch doesn't care, I don't care, no one cares. You don't like the game then don't play it, simple as that.

[ETEl2NAL407]

If you don't like the game then don't play it. Treyarch can make the game however they want. Calling people fanboys because they disagree with you is retarded. We're all fans of zombies here...otherwise we wouldn't be here.

So why don't you put in blops 1 and stop your whining. You seem to dislike the direction blops 2 has taken but guess what? Treyarch doesn't care, I don't care, no one cares. You don't like the game then don't play it, simple as that.

That's the perfect example of a fanboy. Just because I criticize a game that he loves, he berates me. Thank you for the excellent example Edward Richtofen!