Zombies is Changing for the Worse

[Megaton A]

I disagree zombies has been getting better in black ops 2 IMO...

Tranzit was HORRIBLE! The survival maps were slightly better, die rise better then that, and now MOTD is top notch! Can't wait to see what they have next!

This I will agree with. Die Rise was in improvement over TranZit (maybe not a massive one, but definitely an improvement) and Mob was much better than both combined.

The problem with liking Mob so much is.... supposedly it was made by the campaign team. Which is all fine and good, but the next map will be made by our usual Zombies team... which makes me fear we'll be taking a big step backward in quality. Really hoping they prove me wrong, but personally the work of the Zombies team hasn't been impressing me much at all in this game. I'm not sure if I will be buying the next DLC or not. The drastically different look of Mob convinced me to get it day 1, but if the next map appears to have any kind of waiting around/transportation gimmick I'll probably pass.

[Stop Mocking Me0]

You're going to buy it because trayarch will squash the money out of our eyes with simple moving vehicles, a few new weapons, and a new map where everything try's to screw you or the zombies over in a different way, while kickass music plays in the background...

This is the gist of every zombies map trailer yet.... And it ain't gona change anytime soon...

[itsallagame]

It's makes me sad to read all the green run hate comments! Transit is super easy and super fun on solo. Co op brings outs the trolls and point whores. Running the tunnel with mustang and sally and a skullcrusher is the most fun I've had next to sliquifying the floors in front of the doorway by the ak74u so that the zombies slide off the building lol in al honesty though, mob of the dead is frustrating at first for the same reason that die rise was, you NEED to get to know the map, once you do there is an obvious flow to getting the plane parts.you can use the tunnels to train the entire cellblock you can also use the tunnels to flee the docks it is next to impossible to get past round15 without a shield, even with jug because of the tightness of space, aim for the tomawk and the shield before round ten and I promise you will have the best game of zombies you've ever played. Best train spots are the cafeteria, the roof,and the bridge.for giant trains that will save your life, use the cellblock !run into the tunnels through the shower entrance then exits tunnels through the ouble tap entrance and run back to the showers through the cellblock.soo easy. Don't forget the gondoloa, it will save you your ass in a pinch. I got to 38 yesterday p.m me if you wanna get alcatrazed Lolol(on ps3)

[Oldmate]

My take is, it isn't. It's just evolving.

Like any group, zombie fans are all different. Some will like the direction we're heading, others won't.

Not much point in hating on what we've essentially asked for.

[ThrowAmonkeyBomb]

MOTD looks AMAZING in 30 +..problem is I cant get there... :lol:

[ThrowAmonkeyBomb]

I disagree zombies has been getting better in black ops 2 IMO...

Tranzit was HORRIBLE! The survival maps were slightly better, die rise better then that, and now MOTD is top notch! Can't wait to see what they have next!

agreed, IDK if MOTD or die rise are better yet though :D

[The Clay Bird]

This thread is pretty long and I haven't had a chance to read all the replies, but in response to the OP, I both agree to an extent and also disagree. I'll highlight just a few points

1) the OP stated he disliked the fact that perks are increasingly harder to get in BO2:

disagree. the fact that they are in elevators that move up and down in die rise makes it EASIER to get them. think if you are on the roof, and need juggernog, if the loccation was static, you would have to manually run all the way around the map to the place it was, rather than being able to stay put and just wait til it arrives. the premise of a skyscraper map required some things to move vertically.

In mob of the dead, the afterlife powerup of the perks isn't really much of a nuisance. not any moreso than finding a power switch.

bottom line i think although Tranzit was a disaster of a map, die rise and motd have gotten back on track. only argument for it could be in mob, casual zombies players may not be able to easily grasp the idea of afterlife... but i think its pretty easy to figure out

2) The increasing prevalence of story and quests.

agree here. the balance struck in call of the dead, shangri la, and moon was perfect. a casual player could play the map normally and have fun, and probably wouldnt even know about the EE and that was perfectly fine. The EE however had a great reward which incentivized players to attempt it and came with an appropriate reward for completion. Either way the game was the same and was equally enjoyable.

Now like on tranzit, yes you could i guess just open the front door to the bus station, but the workbench and parts are all obviously a starting point and once even half way built, you hear Maxis and have "started" the EE per se. The EE and story and quests are TOO prevalent. This came to a crescendo in MotD where although they basically spelled out how to do it, you HAD to do the main quest simply to pack a punch. yes you can play without PaP but it is equally integral to the game as perks and the box now.

SO:

my conclusion is that excluding tranzit, the dlc maps are heading in the right direction for sure with the exception of the EE's

We REALLY need to get back to the BO1 structure of EEs not being a requirement for success, but include a great reward to give incentive to complete it. This gives us a couple of benefits. those who dont care about story dont have to involve themselves with it, and those who do can.. also it may bring some into the story because the reward gives them enough incentive to try.

tl;dr - better EE rewards, and more subtlety with the quests.

[ThrowAmonkeyBomb]

^^^^what this guy said :)

[DeZ TOo SavaGe]

MotD, doesn't function the same way. Sure I can still grab a gun off the wall and try to use the map to my advantage, but I won't have the game I'd have on Green Run. Everyone must admit that. Foregoing perks, the box, and PaP, which map is going to flow better, GR or MotD? It's that flow that makes a great Zombies map, IMO. I want that flow first, power, PaP, perks, EE's, that's all just icing on the cake, to me...It's good to have, but no matter how sweet the icing is, if you don't have a good cake to put it on, you have a bad cake. The flow makes the map, not the extras. I think MotD put too much focus on these extras and not enough on the flow.

I've been playing since WAW and I don't see any problem with MoTD. Not once have I felt as if the side quest was forced upon me nor do I see a struggle to get perks and weapons. It's not the map, it's your inability to adapt to the increase in difficulty. If your problem was with tranzit then I would have agreed because that map makes obtaining perks tedious and time consuming.

You cant take your opinion of the direction treyarch is going and say it's wrong. Remember it's just your opinion. If they had catered to you then this forum would have been replaced by someone wanting change.

[ETEl2NAL407]

You cant take your opinion of the direction treyarch is going and say it's wrong. Remember it's just your opinion.

Wait...I can't have an opinion about Treyarch?

Does that statement make any sense to anyone else?

Excuse me, sir, but my opinion can be whatever I want it to be, remember it's my opinion.

Though you may disagree with my opinion, does not make your opinion anymore or less accurate than mine. These are opinions, not facts. We can debate all day about our opinions. I can suggest evidence that I believe supports my opinion, just as you can, but that evidence is not empyrical, scientific, fact that proves our opinions because opinions cannot be proven this way, only explained.

For example: I love Lobster. It tastes great, it fills me up, it's fun to eat and crack open, and it's expensive so I feel like high society when I eat it. Here I have explained my opinion about Lobster. Someone else may hate Lobster because they don't like how it tastes, they don't think it has enough meat, they hate having to crack open their food, and they hate spending a lot of money on food.

Do you see what I did there? You see, opinions don't affect the facts about anything, but the facts definitely affect opinions. Those opinions are completely up to the individual who has them, so I apologize if I come off as condescending, but I will viciously defend my right to have an opinion.

[DeZ TOo SavaGe]

You cant take your opinion of the direction treyarch is going and say it's wrong. Remember it's just your opinion.

Wait...I can't have an opinion about Treyarch?

Does that statement make any sense to anyone else?

Excuse me, sir, but my opinion can be whatever I want it to be, remember it's my opinion.

Though you may disagree with my opinion, does not make your opinion anymore or less accurate than mine. These are opinions, not facts. We can debate all day about our opinions. I can suggest evidence that I believe supports my opinion, just as you can, but that evidence is not empyrical, scientific, fact that proves our opinions because opinions cannot be proven this way, only explained.

For example: I love Lobster. It tastes great, it fills me up, it's fun to eat and crack open, and it's expensive so I feel like high society when I eat it. Here I have explained my opinion about Lobster. Someone else may hate Lobster because they don't like how it tastes, they don't think it has enough meat, they hate having to crack open their food, and they hate spending a lot of money on food.

Do you see what I did there? You see, opinions don't affect the facts about anything, but the facts definitely affect opinions. Those opinions are completely up to the individual who has them, so I apologize if I come off as condescending, but I will viciously defend my right to have an opinion.

Please point out where I had said you can not have an opinion about treyarch. Can't, can you? If you read it carefully clearly you can understand that I'm saying your opinion does not make treyarch wrong.. simple

Defending your opinion is not a problem, calling people names who oppose is a problem. Not speaking of now but in earlier post.

[The Clay Bird]

You cant take your opinion of the direction treyarch is going and say it's wrong. Remember it's just your opinion.

Wait...I can't have an opinion about Treyarch?

Does that statement make any sense to anyone else?

Excuse me, sir, but my opinion can be whatever I want it to be, remember it's my opinion.

Though you may disagree with my opinion, does not make your opinion anymore or less accurate than mine. These are opinions, not facts. We can debate all day about our opinions. I can suggest evidence that I believe supports my opinion, just as you can, but that evidence is not empyrical, scientific, fact that proves our opinions because opinions cannot be proven this way, only explained.

For example: I love Lobster. It tastes great, it fills me up, it's fun to eat and crack open, and it's expensive so I feel like high society when I eat it. Here I have explained my opinion about Lobster. Someone else may hate Lobster because they don't like how it tastes, they don't think it has enough meat, they hate having to crack open their food, and they hate spending a lot of money on food.

Do you see what I did there? You see, opinions don't affect the facts about anything, but the facts definitely affect opinions. Those opinions are completely up to the individual who has them, so I apologize if I come off as condescending, but I will viciously defend my right to have an opinion.

i think you missed the point. he was saying in essence nobody can say treyarch is "right" or "wrong" because that is a statement of fact not opinion. you can say you dont like it or vice versa, but doesnt make anybody wrong or right.

i say we get back on track discussing opinions of the direction zombies as a whole is going as opposed to arguing that someone is right or wrong

[DeZ TOo SavaGe]

i say we get back on track discussing opinions of the direction zombies as a whole is going as opposed to arguing that someone is right or wrong

I agree.

[ETEl2NAL407]

Right and wrong are completely subjective. There really is no such thing, they are not factual, they are only perceptions, so I disagree with this statement:

i think you missed the point. he was saying in essence nobody can say treyarch is "right" or "wrong" because that is a statement of fact not opinion.

If I perceive something as wrong, it's wrong for me and my perception is what creates my reality. It may not be wrong for you, but it is for me. For instance: Theft.

For the shop owner that purchased a bushel of apples to sell and make money, a thief is wrong for taking an apple, but to the hungry thief it would be wrong NOT to steal the apple.

We really don't want to start a philosophical debate about this...Wars have begun over such. I am not a person who accepts what others perceive as truth. I seek my own truth and I question everything.

[The Clay Bird]

Right and wrong are completely subjective. There really is no such thing, they are not factual, they are only perceptions, so I disagree with this statement:

i think you missed the point. he was saying in essence nobody can say treyarch is "right" or "wrong" because that is a statement of fact not opinion.

If I perceive something as wrong, it's wrong for me and my perception is what creates my reality. It may not be wrong for you, but it is for me. For instance: Theft.

For the shop owner that purchased a bushel of apples to sell and make money, a thief is wrong for taking an apple, but to the hungry thief it would be wrong NOT to steal the apple.

We really don't want to start a philosophical debate about this...Wars have begun over such. I am not a person who accepts what others perceive as truth. I seek my own truth and I question everything.

LOL well if that's how you feel, then we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

nothing bad about questioning everything, but 2+2=4 is right 2+2=5 is wrong. its black and white. you may feel that treyarch has made poor decisions as a company in the direction they have taken zombies, but they are not right or wrong because it is a statement of opinion not fact.

perhaps you just have a disconnect in the terminology that you are using, because i think I understand what you are saying, the nomenclature just isn't matching

[DeZ TOo SavaGe]

Right and wrong are completely subjective. There really is no such thing, they are not factual, they are only perceptions, so I disagree with this statement:

i think you missed the point. he was saying in essence nobody can say treyarch is "right" or "wrong" because that is a statement of fact not opinion.

If I perceive something as wrong, it's wrong for me and my perception is what creates my reality. It may not be wrong for you, but it is for me. For instance: Theft.

For the shop owner that purchased a bushel of apples to sell and make money, a thief is wrong for taking an apple, but to the hungry thief it would be wrong NOT to steal the apple.

We really don't want to start a philosophical debate about this...Wars have begun over such. I am not a person who accepts what others perceive as truth. I seek my own truth and I question everything.

Whether you believe it or not, it doesn't change anything because your opinion does not make treyarch right or wrong. You think they're heading in the wrong direction? fine. You have every right to think what you want. If treyarchs goal is sales and these maps are helping them meet that goal, then how can anyone say its the wrong direction? or if they fail, how can you say its right? Either way your opinion including my own does not affect their direction being right or wrong.

Telling a story of a hungry thief has to do with ones character and morality so it does not fit our current discussion.

You had made a suggestion that would make the game more enjoyable that I agreed with. I would be happy to talk about what can be done to improve the game if we can just let go of this 'right or wrong' issue.

[ETEl2NAL407]

"DeZ TOo SavaGe"]You had made a suggestion that would make the game more enjoyable that I agreed with. I would be happy to talk about what can be done to improve the game if we can just let go of this 'right or wrong' issue.

...You brought it up. Lol.

My point is that right or wrong is completely perceptual and changes depending on who you ask. If gaining money is what's right for Treyarch, then anything they do to gain money becomes the right thing to do.

I agree, this right or wrong debate is going nowhere, but keep in mind, if I think something is wrong, it's implied that is my opinion. Though I view my opinions strongly, I still understand they are not factual and would not desire to convey that message.