Does the Zombies team even take Zombies seriously anymore?

[jameslieb1]

So in BO2 we had a dedicated Zombies team making Zombies maps. The only problem is, the campaign team was able to make better maps (Mob and Origins). Let's face it, TranZit, Die Rise, and Buried had very little new to offer. They were super easy, had cheap gimmicks like the bank and permaperks, and pretty bland atmospheres. It wasn't like in BO2 where each new Zombies map was something totally different. This time around, they felt more like multiplayer maps, they felt like just a new arena to fight zombies in. The campaign team's maps, though, holy CRAP. Mob and Origins had some of the best atmospheres and backstories of ALL Zombies maps. They were hard too, and had unique and creative gameplay elements like the afterlife, generators, the plane, Brutus and the Panzer, etc. It seems like the Zombies team decided to pump out the maps in a way similar to how multiplayer maps are made, while the campaign team seems to have taken their time with their maps, and crafted them to perfection. I want to know what you guys think, is the spirit of Zombies gone from the Zombies team, and is it now in the hands of the campaign team?

[LJx19]

Well honestly I'm complete and utter shit in die rise. I, for some reason can do absolutely jack shit on that map. Hell I even did round 30 on origins already and still nothing for die rise, so it definitely is up there in difficulty for me. Then buried I can't lie was kinda mind blowing at first because the map was so tight and anti-rape train, but I eventually figured it out. Mob of the dead, and origins are actually pretty easy though, but I must say the campaign team does a damn good job of making their maps time consuming. *cough mud, cough no stamin up on mob*

[TheBSZombie]

Mob and origins have the same core features. Both have afterlife/zombie blood. Both have changeable wonder weapons. Both have a way to turn on and off the power. Both had secretive melee weapons. Both had game ending side quests. Yea origins is much better then mots and does introduce new things but over time the zombies team did make better maps from tranzit-> buried. And its all a matter of opinion. Do you prefer to have a bank and fridge with PUs? Or the other things that the campaign team does in their maps.

[Boom115]

Mob and origins have the same core features. Both have afterlife/zombie blood. Both have changeable wonder weapons. Both have a way to turn on and off the power. Both had secretive melee weapons. Both had game ending side quests. Yea origins is much better then mots and does introduce new things but over time the zombies team did make better maps from tranzit-> buried. And its all a matter of opinion. Do you prefer to have a bank and fridge with PUs? Or the other things that the campaign team does in their maps.

I hate the bank, it made points well pointless. I like the collaboration maps I thought they brought a fresh view to the table. I will note that zombie team didn t completely hand these projects over. They were still very much involved.

[YungRob420]

I like the collaboration maps more than the ones containing our N4 (Which would be the strictly Zombie Dev maps) But as far as how much influence the Zombie devs actually had in those maps is questionable. I honestly think they gave the Campaign team the general idea and let them run with it when they made the map. Notice how Jimmy and all of the other Zombie Devs tweeted so much about the other maps. I.E all the clues they put out, all of the tweets about every map besides MoTD and Origins. Jimmy hasn't tweeted AT ALL about either map, which leads me to believe they either really don't care anymore, or they are just not interested in maps they didn't create.

Honestly to me i feel like the Campaign team maps feel a bit more like old BO1 style Moon. Huge map, but you can go anywhere at anytime. Unlike the BO2 storyline maps (Tranzit, Die Rise, Buried) where we had to wait for a bus, elevator, or a big huckleberry to help us achieve something.

[InfestLithium]

Treyarch went after grabbing a larger audience with innovative concepts for each mode. Think about it.

Tranzit introduced a new way of mobilizing across the map with little to no worry and gave us the ability to store our points and guns for later fun. Did I mention that we actually have buildables now?

Die Rise brought a totally different landscape that we're not used to seeing - vertical structures. It forces us to watch our every move while staying close to our teammates. Elevators are the new way of moving through the map and really test our patience levels.

Mob of the Dead gave us the horror vibe we've so longed for since the days of Verruckt. Take into consideration the Afterlife mode with the plane and smaller Easter Eggs for better weapons.

Buried tested the waters with an innovative AI that is a huge benefit for us. They shifted away from training areas and brought back the good ol' camp fests that we haven't truly seen since Der Riese. A new powerful weapon and challenge (mansion) makes it even more entertaining to survive.

Origins hit all the right spots. New bosses, new terrain, new weapons, new mobile objects, new obstacles, new everything. I wouldn't consider any less of a Black Ops II finale.

Whether the Campaign or Zombies team made certain maps, they are all worthy of it. I think the main problem the Zombies team has is using the same perspective to make maps similar to ones we keep paying homage to because we're so stuck in the past instead of the future. The Campaign Team, however, lends their hand in producing maps [there is no evidence they solely create a map since they have to do things through the Zombies squad anyways].

I like to see it this way: the Zombies Team are the storywriters, and the Campaign Team are the artists. Both captivate us in different ways. Now if they did half-and-half on a map, it would definitely benefit Treyarch in the long run.

[Rissole25]

I will note that zombie team didn t completely hand these projects over. They were still very much involved.

I gotta agree with this. The whole Campaign team didn't solely make Mob of the Dead or Origins. In fact, the only evidence people are providing is the lack of tweets or mentions from Jimmy and co. While that does seem odd, that isn't really hard direct evidence to support their claims. No one at Treyarch has confirmed it or anything.

I'm sure they easily ask for help from the Campaign guys if their schedule is a little tight. But I don't think they come up with anything new. Just following the ZT's directions. I'm sure they have story, and most if not all the map figured out. Maybe some suggestions might get through from the CT to them, but I seriously doubt that MOTD and Origins wasn't majorly done by the ZT.

[Slade]

is the spirit of Zombies gone from the Zombies team, and is it now in the hands of the campaign team?

No. Since the Campaign Team does not make Zombies Maps

It's clear they went in two different directions with Blops 2 Zombies.

You can see the N4 as the 04 spiritual successors, they are supposed to be goofy, funny.

Since Blops 1 the 04 have gotten wittier and wittier. So they continued that trend with the N4.

By the time the budget got increased, they brought in Jason and a bunch of others from SP to help develop Mob. This time around, they wanted to shake this up a bit and go for the Horror Thriller feel. They wanted to characters to be believable and relatable. Same with Origins.

[Tattoo247]

Sorry, how does a bank make points "pointless"? I enjoy keeping it stocked, it makes setting up the game easier, and has no change in the games difficulty. You might be able to get all your perks and weapons on round one, but if you have a hard time getting past round 40, you will still have just as much of trouble getting past it, no matter the points.

As far as the campaign team doing better, I could agree and disagree with that as strange as that sounds

My agreement would be, I enjoy the campaign team maps a little better because of visuals. They really added that extra gloomy element to their maps that brought back that hopeless "we're going to die" feel that I liked in the past maps.

I could disagree because they, in my opinion, screwed up the ending easter eggs. The zombies team swore last year that they would NEVER put a cutscene, intro or ending scene to zombies. Granted, I LOVE the intros to all the maps, they're great. What I don't LOVE, is going through an easter egg to be rewarded with what?....a game over :roll:

I may be old fashioned with zombies, but when I spend all that time following steps, and trying to keep everyone calm so they don't quit, I want to be rewarded with perks, or anything that will keep the game going.

They need to do a collaboration and blend the two map styles together, let the campaign team design the maps, do all the textures, and let the zombies team worry about quotes and easter eggs and all the small EEs as well. That's my opinion :ugeek:

[ibiii]

According to my knowledge, members of this "campaign team" were working with the zombie team ever since the storyline became more serious. I suppose Vonderhaar and friends were shown advertising Mob of the Dead because it was not directly related to the story and not that it was their own independent project.

[FatedTitan]

Black Ops 2 in general gave off a "meh" feeling for zombies. Overhyped maps, dumb maps, awful layouts...

The only map that is fun to play is Origins. And that one is still frustrating to me because of the story they messed with.

[Lenne]

Black Ops 2 in general gave off a "meh" feeling for zombies. Overhyped maps, dumb maps, awful layouts...

The only map that is fun to play is Origins. And that one is still frustrating to me because of the story they messed with.

I agree. (Except for the Origins part since I haven't played that map yet.)

Only MotD and Nuketown were okay.

I also feel like they just completely disregarded solo players. : (

[perfectlemonade]

Black Ops 2 as a whole was just "meh" for me as well, FatedTitan.

They overcomplicated things. Tranzit and Buried took the buildables WAY too far. And yet, while the maps were focused more on quantity rather than quality, they stuck to a very rigid formula for essentially the whole game.

Tranzit: Bus, buildable Wonder Weapon

Die Rise: Elevators, buildable Wonder Weapon

Buried had neither of these, but the subwoofer is basically a Wonder Weapon and, again, took the buildables way too far. Also, from a leaderboard standpoint, the addition of the now-patched Paralyzer really annoyed me. Get in a glitch with a Paralyzer and you're good forever. Infinite ammo Wonder Weapons are a no-go in my book. They should've learned from Tranzit.

Even Origins suffered a bit from "Build Stuff Syndrome". Mob was really the best map of this game, in my opinion, followed by Die Rise then Origins. In my 127 game on Mob, never once did I get truly bored. The Redeemer is amazing, in my opinion. And yeah, I know I just said that I don't like infinite ammo Wonder Weapons, but something about cleaving zombies with a fucking shimmering tomahawk never gets old for me. It's up there with the JGB.

I'm ranting, though. Overall, the Black Ops 2 maps felt like the same shit, just reskinned and rehashed. I still can't get over how much stuff they "recycled" from Mob with Origins. The individual power and midround boss is just such a blatantly obvious reuse because they couldn't come up with better ideas.

Think about it like this: If you went into a Black Ops 1 map, you were guaranteed a different experience each time. Moon and Kino feel radically different from each other. Am I right? But that's not the same with BO2.

I'm going to write a thread about this. This time next year, we'll be getting hyped up for Zombies again. I want Treyarch to learn from their mistakes and start their development of the next game with a clean slate, and I think that clean slate starts with us.

[Boom115]

Sorry, how does a bank make points "pointless"? I enjoy keeping it stocked, it makes setting up the game easier, and has no change in the games difficulty. You might be able to get all your perks and weapons on round one, but if you have a hard time getting past round 40, you will still have just as much of trouble getting past it, no matter the points.

It takes the challenge out of the early rounds. You can have infinite box hits, 5 perks, and three upgraded guns by round one on buried, or round 5 on die rise, and have all doors open. Plus you can easily replace anything that you take out. That's why I like origins so much. You have to put in effort on the low rounds. They aren't just handed to you. Sorry to be off topic.

[The Clay Bird]

Mob and origins have the same core features. Both have afterlife/zombie blood. Both have changeable wonder weapons. Both have a way to turn on and off the power. Both had secretive melee weapons. Both had game ending side quests. Yea origins is much better then mots and does introduce new things but over time the zombies team did make better maps from tranzit-> buried. And its all a matter of opinion. Do you prefer to have a bank and fridge with PUs? Or the other things that the campaign team does in their maps.

I much prefer the exclusion of bank and fridge. Way2g00 made a great guide to getting set up by round 10 on origins. Kudos to him for that, but why was there a need for that? because you actually had to think and strategize and use points wisely, rather than pulling out 30k, rolling box until get raygun and ww, and buy all perks and poof round 50.

By buried it had gotten so easy and so far away from what made zombies so addictive in the first place, that i simply didn't have fun with it anymore

The only place where I think the campaign maps failed is the game ending side quest. the game should simply not end on zombies, and that is something i've been very vocal about all along. The main fail on zombies this game i feel was the EE's... they were either too hard or too easy, and only buried's had a reward worth completing it for.

I will defend the origins EE, in that the steps basically consist of constructing weapons or abilities that help you survive longer, but i still think for putting in all that time a permaperk reward, or even a wonder weapon armory or whatever could have realy made it a fun end to the quest.

overall, i have to say over the coming year, zombies wise, i guarantee i will spend more time playing Mob of the Dead, Origins, and black ops 1 zombies, than i will Tranzit--die rise--buried

[MysteryMachineX]

There were three teams for Call of Duty: Black Ops II: campaign, multiplayer, and zombies. Campaign was the priority; it had to be done first. Multiplayer and Zombies were working hard as well, but campaign doesn't do DLC. Campaign had to put all of its money up front with the game.

Then the game was completed. Multiplayer was busy making more Multiplayer maps. Zombies working hard to make its Zombies maps. What does Campaign do? Twiddle its thumbs? No, they put a lot of time and effort into helping the Zombies team make the DLC maps. In essence, the Zombies team consists of the Campaign team during the DLC season, as Campaign has nothing else to do.

This explains how full cinematics can be achieved, how fully-rigged NPC characters can be made, how a multitude of special features and coding can be inputed into a new "map". The term map itself is a misnomer. A new Multiplayer map is just that, geography. But in Zombies it is so much more. This feat would be impossible without Zombies and Campaign, helping them out.

All maps are always designed by Zombies. Campaign helps out on almost all of them. Maybe not Nacht.

[The Clay Bird]

There were three teams for Call of Duty: Black Ops II: campaign, multiplayer, and zombies. Campaign was the priority; it had to be done first. Multiplayer and Zombies were working hard as well, but campaign doesn't do DLC. Campaign had to put all of its money up front with the game.

Then the game was completed. Multiplayer was busy making more Multiplayer maps. Zombies working hard to make its Zombies maps. What does Campaign do? Twiddle its thumbs? No, they put a lot of time and effort into helping the Zombies team make the DLC maps. In essence, the Zombies team consists of the Campaign team during the DLC season, as Campaign has nothing else to do.

This explains how full cinematics can be achieved, how fully-rigged NPC characters can be made, how a multitude of special features and coding can be inputed into a new "map". The term map itself is a misnomer. A new Multiplayer map is just that, geography. But in Zombies it is so much more. This feat would be impossible without Zombies and Campaign, helping them out.

All maps are always designed by Zombies. Campaign helps out on almost all of them. Maybe not Nacht.

While this may be true, the similarities between the design of Mob of the Dead and Origins have to indicate that someone or some team specifically had more influence and say in what went into those two maps. with the "quest items" shown when the back button is pressed to the side quest ending the game, to no bank or weapons fridge... plus many more im sure im forgetting.

I'm not disputing that the campaign guys help out with aspects of all the zombies stages, but it seems quite obvious to me that there was a different lead crew on Mob and Origins than on the other 3

[Slade]

There were three teams for Call of Duty: Black Ops II: campaign, multiplayer, and zombies. Campaign was the priority; it had to be done first. Multiplayer and Zombies were working hard as well, but campaign doesn't do DLC. Campaign had to put all of its money up front with the game.

Then the game was completed. Multiplayer was busy making more Multiplayer maps. Zombies working hard to make its Zombies maps. What does Campaign do? Twiddle its thumbs? No, they put a lot of time and effort into helping the Zombies team make the DLC maps. In essence, the Zombies team consists of the Campaign team during the DLC season, as Campaign has nothing else to do.

This explains how full cinematics can be achieved, how fully-rigged NPC characters can be made, how a multitude of special features and coding can be inputed into a new "map". The term map itself is a misnomer. A new Multiplayer map is just that, geography. But in Zombies it is so much more. This feat would be impossible without Zombies and Campaign, helping them out.

All maps are always designed by Zombies. Campaign helps out on almost all of them. Maybe not Nacht.

While this may be true, the similarities between the design of Mob of the Dead and Origins have to indicate that someone or some team specifically had more influence and say in what went into those two maps. with the "quest items" shown when the back button is pressed to the side quest ending the game, to no bank or weapons fridge... plus many more im sure im forgetting.

I'm not disputing that the campaign guys help out with aspects of all the zombies stages, but it seems quite obvious to me that there was a different lead crew on Mob and Origins than on the other 3

Not a different lead crew, probably just Jason Blundell. (Exec. producer on both Mob and Origins) he probably pushed the horror-thriller feel to both maps. Taking Zombies in a new and fresh direction for Mob. Did it again for Origins.

Approx. 1-2 months after the game is gold, the Campaign Team start production on the next campaign for Treyarch's next title, so it's not like they have that much free time on their hands to start helping out the Zombies Team on DLC. That's where other studios like Raven Software comes (came) in.

- Al

[DeathBringerZen]

While this may be true, the similarities between the design of Mob of the Dead and Origins have to indicate that someone or some team specifically had more influence and say in what went into those two maps. with the "quest items" shown when the back button is pressed to the side quest ending the game, to no bank or weapons fridge... plus many more im sure im forgetting.

I'm not disputing that the campaign guys help out with aspects of all the zombies stages, but it seems quite obvious to me that there was a different lead crew on Mob and Origins than on the other 3

Agreed.

I think a lot of people who assume that only the zombie team makes maps need to go back and do some research.

Jimmy Zielinski has said in interviews in the past that maps have been outsources, and even mentions it a few times during the XP 2011 event, so people who think they do not should go back and watch the video.

He said in a C&VG interview a while back that he was impressed with Shangri La, and wished he was able to have got involved in it's development, as he had some good ideas he thought would have made it better.

Then, in the XP 2011 event, he said how it went from a small idea, to an idea the company loved, and then, when they gave it to OTHER COMPANIES, they loved making maps for it too!

Also, go to Haxington Post and read the full, detailed history of zombies, written by the Jess Snyder, and with contributions from guys from Treyarch for confirmation that Der Riese and Shangri La were maps that were outsourced by the zombie team, and how they played no part in their developments.

People need to research these things rather than just make assumptions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxW6QbnblSs

Go to 4:20 in and watch from there. Listen clearly to what Jimmy says regarding how it started, and how others who developed maps for the series perceived the game mode and embraced it.

[Electric Jesus]

Honestly I still don't get the point of all these disappointment threads. One is enough. This is probably disappointment thread seven or eight THOUSAND. Jesus.

Anyway, I've always found that even maps like tranzit (which most people unlike me consider awful) can be made amazing with the right kind of challenge.

Waiting for the bus, or waiting for an elevator, or looking for a pesky little green key is a tedious kind of challenge. We want a hectic kind of challenge which keeps you immersed in the game instead of bored. There are a few ways you can add this challenge for yourself. In the words of Michael Jackson "if you want to make the world a better place, take a look at yourself and make a change." The way you play the game starts with you.

Pro-tips!

1. Play multiplayer. This makes it even more fun if you play with friends who aren't as good as you. You have a lot of hectic fun keeping them alive while not getting frustrated like you would with randoms.

2. Omit undesirable features. Some things like elevators and the bus are unavoidable. But let's say you hate having to build the wonder weapon. Solution? Don't build the wonder weapon. It adds that challenge and forces you to be more versatile, making you a more skilled player over all. Not accepting wonder weapons from the box in BOI achieves a similar effect, although the fun was never absent in the first place there. Of course this deprives you of the joy of using wonder weapons, but that remains entirely up to you.

3. Don't be a critic. Play each game one at a time. Don't think "oh man now I'm going to go through the fog, this map sucks." Chances are if you tell yourself something enough times it will become true. Likewise if you only ever think of tranzit as the map with the fog, you'll only ever see it as that, and you'll prevent yourself from ever having fun on the map. It's like presenting a project in school. If you say beforehand "this isn't very good" or "I'm not sure if this is right, but..." Then people will have the preconceived notion that it won't be very good, and that's how they will see it.

Follow EJ's pro-tips and you will be led onto enlightenment. As far as I'm concerned, tranzit doesn't suck. Play a game with ME, and then you'll see how much fun you can have. And again how much fun you have playing a map depends entirely on you. If you have fun on a map it is successful, yes? That's the point of the game, to entertain? In that case is say black ops 2 has been a huge success. It might not be the same as it was in BOI, but most people are just afraid of change.

I'm ranting now. You get it. Blah blah blah.

Now if you'll excuse me I need to go and make some chicken nuggets.

YOU WANT DA PUNCAKE YOU WANT DA PUNCAKE

[ThrowAmonkeyBomb]

^^^People make chicken nuggets? and agreed.But im not a fan of transh-t

EDIT:Nuggets not Niggets!!!!Sorry if anyone thought I was making a racial slur i wasnt! :oops:

[The Clay Bird]

Sorry, how does a bank make points "pointless"? I enjoy keeping it stocked, it makes setting up the game easier, and has no change in the games difficulty. You might be able to get all your perks and weapons on round one, but if you have a hard time getting past round 40, you will still have just as much of trouble getting past it, no matter the points.

I could disagree because they, in my opinion, screwed up the ending easter eggs. The zombies team swore last year that they would NEVER put a cutscene, intro or ending scene to zombies. Granted, I LOVE the intros to all the maps, they're great. What I don't LOVE, is going through an easter egg to be rewarded with what?....a game over :roll:

:ugeek:

Re: bank having no change in the games difficulty? you have to be joking! You said it right there it "makes setting the game up easier" thats it! that is zombies! almost all of the maps since Shi no numa have been relatively easy once you are set up yes there are some a bit harder than others like "five" and shangri-la and origins imo, but in general once you get your perks weapons and upgrade you can go to reasonably high rounds. The bank takes the challenging part away. Origins is os fun to me because i've died so many times on round 8-10-12 because i struggled to get set up or had an early down. The bank takes 100% of the skill and decision making out of zombies. same with the weapon locker. you understand in buried i could literally pull a upgraded lsat out of the locker and be good for 30 rounds sitting at jug. i mean might as well just make a zombies shooting gallery where you get to pick your gun and just fire away/

so to conclude that point, origins and mob were WAY better from that standpoint

On to your point about the easter eggs. I COMPLETELY agree with you on that. There should never be a way to end the zombies game without being torn limb from limb by the undead. I stand by that now, and will for all time.

For the next game, I hope for less buildables (but 1 or 2 is okay. the staffs i thought were really intuitive and fun for all 4 players to be able to weild a wonder weapon with some work) i hope for more innovation in new perks and weaponry (think how innovative it was to have the ballistis knives upgrade into a long range revive tool, or the awful lawton as a monkey bomb of sort. none of the black ops 2 weapons had any sort of great extra power when upgraded) and bring back private matches, lobby leaderboards, and totally revamp the rankings system into a prestige like system. let the leaderboards show your skill, and the prestige can show your dedication as a player.

fiinally i think beginning with mob of the dead, the updating of the HUD for each map, and the musical changes within different areas of the map or as things are completed added SO much. that alone was the single most successful innovation for black ops 2 zombise

[Tattoo247]

It's a matter of opinion if you consider early rounds challenging. I prefer getting to round 20-30 in an hour as apposed to two or two and a half, some will hate it some will love it. I've seen enough of those rounds to want to blast through them, so I take lots of points and get my perks and weapons so I can get to the real challenge of beating previous rounds.

If you enjoy playing low rounds then you don't have to use points, it is a luxury not really a necessity. It doesn't make it any less challenging to beat your record, which I believe is what most people strive for when they play. It comes down to time, and how you chooses to use your time in the game.

[The Clay Bird]

It's a matter of opinion if you consider early rounds challenging. I prefer getting to round 20-30 in an hour as apposed to two or two and a half, some will hate it some will love it. I've seen enough of those rounds to want to blast through them, so I take lots of points and get my perks and weapons so I can get to the real challenge of beating previous rounds.

If you enjoy playing low rounds then you don't have to use points, it is a luxury not really a necessity. It doesn't make it any less challenging to beat your record, which I believe is what most people strive for when they play. It comes down to time, and how you chooses to use your time in the game.

so you are contending that it makes absolutely no difference if you have 30,000 points in round 1 or 0 points? that is just completely absurd. if that was actually the case, treyarch would just completely eliminate the points system and make everything free. what the hell does it matter its all the same until round 100 right? lol geez what a ridiculous contention

[GRILL]

please play nice in this thread or it will be locked.

everyone's opinion is valid, there is no reason to label things as "absurd" or "ridiculous". I'm sure there is a more polite way to disagree.

Thanks :mrgreen: