The Cave, Abracadavre, and Origins

[FatedTitan]

[socrates] And now, I said, let me show in a figure how far our nature is enlightened or unenlightened: --Behold! human beings living in a underground cave, which has a mouth open towards the light and reaching all along the cave; here they have been from their childhood, and have their legs and necks chained so that they cannot move, and can only see before them, being prevented by the chains from turning round their heads. Above and behind them a fire is blazing at a distance, and between the fire and the prisoners there is a raised way; and you will see, if you look, a low wall built along the way, like the screen which marionette players have in front of them, over which they show the puppets.

[Glaucon] I see.

[socrates] And do you see, I said, men passing along the wall carrying all sorts of vessels, and statues and figures of animals made of wood and stone and various materials, which appear over the wall? Some of them are talking, others silent.

[Glaucon] You have shown me a strange image, and they are strange prisoners.

[socrates] Like ourselves, I replied; and they see only their own shadows, or the shadows of one another, which the fire throws on the opposite wall of the cave?

[Glaucon] True, he said; how could they see anything but the shadows if they were never allowed to move their heads?

[socrates] And of the objects which are being carried in like manner they would only see the shadows?

[Glaucon] Yes, he said.

[socrates] And if they were able to converse with one another, would they not suppose that they were naming what was actually before them?

[Glaucon] Very true.

[socrates] And suppose further that the prison had an echo which came from the other side, would they not be sure to fancy when one of the passers-by spoke that the voice which they heard came from the passing shadow?

[Glaucon] No question, he replied.

[socrates] To them, I said, the truth would be literally nothing but the shadows of the images.

[Glaucon] That is certain.

[socrates] And now look again, and see what will naturally follow if the prisoners are released and disabused of their error. At first, when any of them is liberated and compelled suddenly to stand up and turn his neck round and walk and look towards the light, he will suffer sharp pains; the glare will distress him, and he will be unable to see the realities of which in his former state he had seen the shadows; and then conceive some one saying to him, that what he saw before was an illusion, but that now, when he is approaching nearer to being and his eye is turned towards more real existence, he has a clearer vision, -what will be his reply? And you may further imagine that his instructor is pointing to the objects as they pass and requiring him to name them, -will he not be perplexed? Will he not fancy that the shadows which he formerly saw are truer than the objects which are now shown to him?

[Glaucon] Far truer.

[socrates] And if he is compelled to look straight at the light, will he not have a pain in his eyes which will make him turn away to take and take in the objects of vision which he can see, and which he will conceive to be in reality clearer than the things which are now being shown to him?

[Glaucon] True, he now.

[socrates] And suppose once more, that he is reluctantly dragged up a steep and rugged ascent, and held fast until he 's forced into the presence of the sun himself, is he not likely to be pained and irritated? When he approaches the light his eyes will be dazzled, and he will not be able to see anything at all of what are now called realities.

[Glaucon] Not all in a moment, he said.

[socrates] He will require to grow accustomed to the sight of the upper world. And first he will see the shadows best, next the reflections of men and other objects in the water, and then the objects themselves; then he will gaze upon the light of the moon and the stars and the spangled heaven; and he will see the sky and the stars by night better than the sun or the light of the sun by day?

[Glaucon] Certainly.

[socrates] Last of he will be able to see the sun, and not mere reflections of him in the water, but he will see him in his own proper place, and not in another; and he will contemplate him as he is.

[Glaucon] Certainly.

[socrates] He will then proceed to argue that this is he who gives the season and the years, and is the guardian of all that is in the visible world, and in a certain way the cause of all things which he and his fellows have been accustomed to behold?

[Glaucon] Clearly, he said, he would first see the sun and then reason about him.

[socrates] And when he remembered his old habitation, and the wisdom of the cave and his fellow-prisoners, do you not suppose that he would felicitate himself on the change, and pity them?

[Glaucon] Certainly, he would.

[socrates] And if they were in the habit of conferring honors among themselves on those who were quickest to observe the passing shadows and to remark which of them went before, and which followed after, and which were together; and who were therefore best able to draw conclusions as to the future, do you think that he would care for such honors and glories, or envy the possessors of them? Would he not say with Homer,

Better to be the poor servant of a poor master,

and to endure anything, rather than think as they do and live after their manner?

[Glaucon] Yes, he said, I think that he would rather suffer anything than entertain these false notions and live in this miserable manner.

[socrates] Imagine once more, I said, such an one coming suddenly out of the sun to be replaced in his old situation; would he not be certain to have his eyes full of darkness?

[Glaucon] To be sure, he said.

[socrates] And if there were a contest, and he had to compete in measuring the shadows with the prisoners who had never moved out of the cave, while his sight was still weak, and before his eyes had become steady (and the time which would be needed to acquire this new habit of sight might be very considerable) would he not be ridiculous? Men would say of him that up he went and down he came without his eyes; and that it was better not even to think of ascending; and if any one tried to loose another and lead him up to the light, let them only catch the offender, and they would put him to death.

[Glaucon] No question, he said.

I can fly like a bird not in the sky

which can always swim and always dry

I say goodbye at night and morning hi

I'm part of you what am I

I follow and lead as you pass

dress yourself in black my darkness lasts

I flee the light but without the sun

Your view of me would be gone

I don't feel

Like I am real

But I know it's all imaginary

Are they real

And do they feel

Is all the pain

Just inside my head

these shackles they come

with certain opportunities

they won't let me get away

but they show me we're the same

we're the same

we're the same

they show me we are the same

I can't give in

I won't give in

It's not a state of mind

I'm wretched but I'm powerful

Anyone else think it all relates?

[FatedTitan]

Well no responses could mean two things to me:

1. No one gets how it relates

2. No one cares

I'll assume the first! So let me explain what I'm seeing here.

We were born in a cave where we could only see the shadows on the wall. Our knowledge of the world was always from the shadows, not clear vision. This is zombies for us. We were introduced to zombies, but the storyline has always been veiled in shadows. Then, after being in this Cave for so long, we were allowed to exit. We were allowed to see truth...to see the real world how it is.

The shadows aspect is shown in the song Abracadavre. The shadow is hinted at in the first verse. And then talks about how everything we know...could it all be imaginary, a hint toward the Cave and a hint toward our perception of what is reality, not actually being reality.

And this all culminates in our end cut scene. We see the truth of our world. And there are two types of people that we are left with.

1. Someone who has seen the light and goes back and tells others. But since it looks nothing like they know and he seems like a fool when he comes back into the area previously known, they laugh at him and say that any who follow should be killed(not that violent though).

2. Someone who remains in the Cave and avoids the truth, choosing to stay in the darkness and continue to have their knowledge based on what they've seen from the shadows.

Does it connect better now?

[GRILL]

Does it connect better now?

Yes. Sometimes, we don't have the time to read such a large text quote. It helps a lot when you provide what you think, because it's like an olive branch. True, it's cool for people to derive their own thoughts and I understand how you didn't want to influence anyone - but if you are presenting the theory, it helps to know what you think.

The cave allegory is something I'm very fond of. I really like how you summed it up here:

1. Someone who has seen the light and goes back and tells others.

2. Someone who remains in the Cave and avoids the truth, choosing to stay in the darkness and continue to have their knowledge based on what they've seen from the shadows.

So basically, it leaves the community divided between the believers & the skeptics. It's funny, this is almost like a coping mechanism that you've come up with - but I really like it... and it perfectly relates to how it feels now. A community divided. Who know's what was reality, what was a shadow, and what was a shadow's shadow?

All it really comes down to (for me), is this:

Great thread, Brett - I'm sure you'll get some more responses now that you've provided your thought process.

also, spoilers are your friend :P

[LJx19]

Well thanks for clearing up. I read your thread the first day you posted it and didn't really get how Socrates, and abracadavre were tied together. (Hey I'm more of a modern philosophy guy). Anyway this is one of the things I've been saying since I saw the Easter egg ending. Its left the community divided into the (sad) believers, and (distraught) unbelievers.