Are we drifting away from "Classic" Zombies?

[GameChanger]

I've been thinking recently about both Origins and Mob of the Dead and the popularity of these maps. Both maps have a very distinct and different playstyle compared to other maps. Based on the praise received from the maps, we can expect to see more of them in Black Ops 3:Ghouls (Working title). Does this mean we're slowly drifting away from the more "Traditional" style of maps? I personally think we can have the best of both worlds in the next game. Sometimes I'm in the mood for a quickie match without an intricate 20-step Side Quest to Pack a Punch. Other times I want to have a fun challenge with the spare time on my hands. What's your view on this?

[Stop Mocking Me0]

As the past grows old we look to the future for more ideas.... Law of life....

There isn't much storyline in these two maps as well... As MOTD takes place in a mobster's hell and Origins in samanthia's reality....

Also a note: Both MOTD and Origins had the classic system of open door---> continue pathway, where as tranzit, die rise, and buried had access to a good 3/5ths of the Map before buying a single door....

[ThrowAmonkeyBomb]

In My opinion,Origins and MOTD were more bo1 esque than the others. ;)

[Undead]

I enjoyed it more when these "EE" were really "Easter Eggs" rather than an objective. This season they were basically thrusted upon us.

[Stop Mocking Me0]

Indeed... Likewise, they were obvious and easy to figure out... Pity....

[InfestLithium]

Treyarch tried something different, and they did it successfully. People argue about the "classic" feel because the Side Quests are being shoved down a player's throat just to play the game half the time. There are, however, is a simple way to fix that: just don't do the Side Quest. The thing about Origins is that everyone wants a staff, and everyone wants to upgrade it. At that point, you're pretty much halfways done with the Quest so many people feel that they might as well do everything else. The same goes for Mob of the Dead and the makeshift plane.

Also, Mob of the Dead/Origins were just good examples of making the game similar to the classic maps by shifting the attention from the map layout to what was available. MotD returns the Verruckt feel and the weapons do not disappoint. Origins delivers everything we could possibly want with new additions so it automatically becomes the top favorite.

It's not to say that the other maps failed. The perspective of gamers vs. devoted slayers is very skewed in terms of personal likes. Just as how everyone wanted to get rid of the N4 even when Black Ops II offered Tranzit because "we wunt teh o4 moor pls". You can't forever stay in the classic Zombies feel. New things have to be added and transitioned so variety is available.

[MegaAfroMan]

Yes and no. But mostly only in a good way.

Other than the storyline getting looped back on it's self (many people still disagree about what exactly happened and this isn't the place to discuss that.)

I think we're seeing a mixture of old and new elements.

As pointed out, MotD and Origins had a more BO/WaW feel to them, because they had little hidden objectives, and they had the classic pathway system where you had to buy your way through the map.

TranZit, Die Rise, and Buried, were actually more distinct than the others with several buildables, access to most of the map on round one, persistant upgrades, bank, weapon locker.

That being said, larger fundamental changed seem to occur in MotD with the afterlife system.

I think, in it's simplest, the more purchasable doors, the better the map seems. You get more of a sense of progress and exploration when you have to build up points to progress, than when it simply requires 5 minutes of running and jumping through the "long way around".

This is not an absolute, it is a generalization. There are many, many other factors that contributre towards the quality of the map, but I feel that this quality is often overlooked.

I hope that we move away from the classic zombies in features, as I like new things, moreso than just one new perk (while keeping all the old perks) and one new WW.

I like the new buildables and objectives and enemies and whatnot.

However I hope they fall back on requiring many door purchases to move forward in a map, and leave the bank out.

[Stop Mocking Me0]

Well, yes I do agree with you (Infest)... But there are two issues:

1: We have no idea where the O4 went... What they're doing or how Samantha is protecting them... It's not that we have to have their characters back into the game, but to at least finish their story would be nice... You could even do that with diffrent characters (please see mocking me countdown finale for an example)

2: Origins did not give us everything we could possibly want... It gave us zero confirmable info on anything storyline wise, and honestly, is just a harder version of MOTD IMO: BUT this isn't a topic about that so lets refrain from throwing arguments back and forth about it... Already did that once... Origins becomes the top favorite because it's the only challenging zombie map IMO... Tranzit, die rise, MOTD, and buried are all easy as pie, and nuketown/survival maps are just not enough to me... It also is a favorite because it brought back characters we loved, despite the fact their personalitys were yet to be humor-fied.... Asside from that, yeah it was the barrage of new features that won it over, but its important to point our that's not the only reason...

[DeathBringerZen]

I've been thinking recently about both Origins and Mob of the Dead and the popularity of these maps.

Popularity? I am not sure where you are getting that from but the majority of people I know hate Origins, and most of what I have read online is negative. Even people who like the map would admit that despite enjoying it every now and again it WAS a letdown of epic proportions.

I absolutely hate all the tasks in Origins and will be disgusted if they continue the trend in the next game, as will many others. MotD got the same kind of heat for being repetitive due to the tasks required within the game. Origins just took the piss with it.

Also, aside from the 3 or 4 actual puzzle steps in the Origins EE, all the rest of it was just killing zombies here, killing zombies there, killing them here again etc.

To answer your main question though... YES! These maps do drift away from "classic" zombies, but that is not a bad thing if done right. MotD did it right to an extent. Origins failed at it spectacularly.

How can we go from a map like Moon, where we do the EE every game because it enhances the experience to a map like Origins where we do the EE once and NEVER want to do it again!?

[XxJason LivesxX]

I've been thinking recently about both Origins and Mob of the Dead and the popularity of these maps.

Popularity? I am not sure where you are getting that from but the majority of people I know hate Origins, and most of what I have read online is negative. Even people who like the map would admit that despite enjoying it every now and again it WAS a letdown of epic proportions.

I absolutely hate all the tasks in Origins and will be disgusted if they continue the trend in the next game, as will many others. MotD got the same kind of heat for being repetitive due to the tasks required within the game. Origins just took the piss with it.

Also, aside from the 3 or 4 actual puzzle steps in the Origins EE, all the rest of it was just killing zombies here, killing zombies there, killing them here again etc.

To answer your main question though... YES! These maps do drift away from "classic" zombies, but that is not a bad thing if done right. MotD did it right to an extent. Origins failed at it spectacularly.

How can we go from a map like Moon, where we do the EE every game because it enhances the experience to a map like Origins where we do the EE once and NEVER want to do it again!?

Sums it up nicely..

I have been a zombie slayer since W@W and Origins and MOTD were without a doubt the worst maps of the 3 seasons of Zombies.

some of you guys know me and also know I'm not one to get negative, but Origins really just put me off something fierce.

Hence Why I haven't really posted since it's release.

I thought I would always be Zombie fan as that has been my main game for the last 5 years, but with the new direction of MOTD and Origins, I really could care less.

How do you take one of the most simple and addictive gamemodes ever created and make it a tedious bore? The answer is Origins.

And to all that are saying that Origins is a "Fan Favorite" IDK where you get this but everybody I've talked to over Live hates the map...

[DeathBringerZen]

Sums it up nicely..

I have been a zombie slayer since W@W and Origins and MOTD were without a doubt the worst maps of the 3 seasons of Zombies.

some of you guys know me and also know I'm not one to get negative, but Origins really just put me off something fierce.

Hence Why I haven't really posted since it's release.

I thought I would always be Zombie fan as that has been my main game for the last 5 years, but with the new direction of MOTD and Origins, I really could care less.

How do you take one of the most simple and addictive gamemodes ever created and make it a tedious bore? The answer is Origins.

And to all that are saying that Origins is a "Fan Favorite" IDK where you get this but everybody I've talked to over Live hates the map...

No... THIS^ sums it up nicely.

[Rissole25]

I actually really liked Origins. I think the those mini challenge things should be implemented in every map. Doesn't have to be done. But it's something you can do if you want.

Honestly the only thing so far I don't like about it is the story implications. But from a gameplay view, I think it's the most exciting and fun map we've had so far.

[Chopper]

I like Origins. Actually, I really love Origins.

As stated on a few occasions I don't care for the story at all, or the EE outside of something fun to do once or twice.

I cared when EEs could only be done 4p, and even that seems to be gone now.

It seems to me that the people who don't care for the story, love Origins.

And the people who are more story orientated, hate it.

Most of my friends like the map.

You could argue that all zombie maps have limitied replayability to certain players.

You have the guys who get 100 in the first week/month on every one.

Once they have done that, where is it for them?

For the rest, ultimately you are continuously striving to get higher rounds, or you play the maps more for fun and do different challenges.

The only map I truly hate is Tranzit. Everything on that map is a pain in the arse to me.

I reckon that some people who hate Origins, love Tranzit. Damned if I know why, but I'm sure there is an answer.

It could just be 'different strokes for different folks', but I'm sure there is more.

Treyarch are making the game for the masses. Out of all those people who buy the game, how many do you think visit sites like these?

Less than 10%? Even lower I reckon. Sure quite a higher percentage would watch youtube and stuff, and do a few simple google searches with specific questions but there is still a far larger % of people buying the game, and the DLCs.

Treyarch do seem to have tried to incorporate ideas from the community into the game.

Which is damn cool. If they didn't bother at all, not that many people would refuse to buy their games.

I believe they had to drift away from classic zombies. For the majority of people to keep buying, they just need to love one map I suppose.

Any change is going to be loved by some, hated by others and not even remarked upon by more.

To me the perfect map was Verruckt. If they added a PAP to that map it would become the most insane challenge map.

Maybe that's it for me....I love challenges. Origins has the most challenges of any other BO2 map.

[DeathBringerZen]

It seems to me that the people who don't care for the story, love Origins. And the people who are more story orientated, hate it.

That is not exactly true though, as a lot of people I know are not really EE players and they seem to hate it BECAUSE it is EE driven.

That is one of the reason I personally don't like it. You are forced to do the majority of the EE if you want the ultimate staffs and it get's beyond tedious after just a few games.

Personally, I did not find the Origins EE fun at any stage. It was a repetitive chore and was completely unrewarding for it's efforts.

The map itself is ok. I have had some fun co-op games on it but it was not worthy of being a final DLC map. It looked so good before it was released too.

I understand that not everyone hates it, but I still think the majority do. I don't see many people say they like it.

As for longevity... I am such a big fans of zombies that I don't really play anything else anymore. I still play WaW and BO1 very regularly and still am not really tired of any of those maps.

I stopped playing BO2 7 days after Origins was released on XBOX and have only went back to it once since then. I put it on now and again but when I try to select a map, I just think "Meh" and put BO1 on instead. I just don't think the maps are good enough to tide me over till the next game. They are all too heavily objective based with the exceptions of Die Rise and NTZ and it means quick games are out of the question unless you want to play the aforementioned maps, and I am not a fan of either. Die Rise is ok on solo, but the terrible spawn ratio per player ruins it on co-op.

I wanted Origins to be something epic. I don't think it comes even close to it.

[Stop Mocking Me0]

It seems to me that the people who don't care for the story, love Origins. And the people who are more story orientated, hate it.

That is not exactly true though, as a lot of people I know are not really EE players and they seem to hate it BECAUSE it is EE driven.

That is one of the reason I personally don't like it. You are forced to do the majority of the EE if you want the ultimate staffs and it get's beyond tedious after just a few games.

Personally, I did not find the Origins EE fun at any stage. It was a repetitive chore and was completely unrewarding for it's efforts.

The map itself is ok. I have had some fun co-op games on it but it was not worthy of being a final DLC map. It looked so good before it was released too.

I understand that not everyone hates it, but I still think the majority do. I don't see many people say they like it.

As for longevity... I am such a big fans of zombies that I don't really play anything else anymore. I still play WaW and BO1 very regularly and still am not really tired of any of those maps.

I stopped playing BO2 7 days after Origins was released on XBOX and have only went back to it once since then. I put it on now and again but when I try to select a map, I just think "Meh" and put BO1 on instead. I just don't think the maps are good enough to tide me over till the next game. They are all too heavily objective based with the exceptions of Die Rise and NTZ and it means quick games are out of the question unless you want to play the aforementioned maps, and I am not a fan of either. Die Rise is ok on solo, but the terrible spawn ratio per player ruins it on co-op.

I wanted Origins to be something epic. I don't think it comes even close to it.

Couldnt agree more!

We went from the birthplace of the zombie army (der reise) to the Effing moon in the first two games, both of which had tasks that were ENTIRELY worth compleating, but no one HAD to do it to get a infanantly powerful wonder weapon. Then we go to a map with a compleate disreguard for the storyline, and a forced Easter egg.

[TheBSZombie]

I dont understand why you guys say that the easter is forced? Is it cus samantha is continuously running her mouth?

[Stop Mocking Me0]

I dont understand why you guys say that the easter is forced? Is it cus samantha is continuously running her mouth?

Do you want to upgrade the staffs? Of course you do... And the only way to do that? Half the Easter egg... Then you might as well finish it once the hard part is compleate, and if you don't it's still an Easter egg just to upgrade the staffs.

[MegaAfroMan]

In a standard game, you really shouldn't feel forced to do more than upgrade one or maybe two staves. That isn't the whole easter egg. That's barely any of it.

Everyone I talk to over LIVE loves Origins.

I think it combines the best aspects of BO maps, and BO2 Maps, and I love the idea of these alternate objectives, even if they need to be repeated.

I can't see how MotD would be more liked than Origins in this respect...

If you want to pack-a-punch on Origins you have to power all 6 generators (which you'd want to do anyways as you get paid for it, and you need it to buy perks), and keep them powered (which you'd want to do anyways as you can get Max Ammos from the creatures that attack the generators).

On MotD you have to run all over the map (multiple times if you arwn't playing solo) to gather plane pieces or fuel. Seems like a much larger hassle.

On MotD and Origins you need to go through some steps to get the melee, and I'd argue MotD's is more out of the way, Origins is just killing zombies with whatever weapon you want in four easy to survive in areas.

MotD and Origins both have tacticals to obtain, but I personally think Origins aren't worth the effort. However it only requires melee killing is 2 areas, MotD requires general killing in 3 areas. Not the greatest side quest, but in MotD the reward is worth it. In Origins, you don't need to bother.

Upgrading the Staves in Origins can be seen as a simple type of Pack-a-punch. At it's very worst, upgrading a staff in origins, can't be more of a hassle than getting 4 randoms to activate the PaP to upgrade the JGB in Shangri-La, can it?

If you want to postulate that you need to do the EE to have a decent place to run (Crazy Place without walls) then you're wrongly feeling entitled to a ridiculously easy running place. Think of the crazy place as the mud room in Shangri-La as it's normal form. That's what we are given. You can enhance it by doing the EE, but you don't need to. It isn't shoved down your throat.

[TheBSZombie]

I dont understand why you guys say that the easter is forced? Is it cus samantha is continuously running her mouth?

Do you want to upgrade the staffs? Of course you do... And the only way to do that? Half the Easter egg... Then you might as well finish it once the hard part is compleate, and if you don't it's still an Easter egg just to upgrade the staffs.

I dont consider upgrading the staffs an easter egg. I consider that part of the game. And its not half of the easter egg. It might be time consuming, but you would still have to fill up chests, get the airstrikes, Put the staffs in robots, ext.

Upgrading the staffs is not something hidden in the game. Its might be part of the overall easter egg but just upgrading the staffs i wouldnt say is being forced to do the easter egg

[MegaAfroMan]

I don't see why everyone makes it out to be such a big deal to upgrade one staff. That is nowhere near half the easter egg. As Samantha describes the steps, that is 1/4 of the first step. It takes different times depending on the staffs, but after getting the staff parts (I do think wind and sometimes Ice are a little too tedious, but not game breaking) if you know what you're doing, it shouldn't take more than 30 seconds to do whichever crazy place puzzle (except fire), and only 3 or so minutes to do the above ground puzzle (except fire in which the above ground puzzle should only take you 30 or so seconds.)

Then it just somes down to doing the easy stuff in the excavation site, and killing a little in the crazy place.

You can upgrade the lightning staff in no time. I'll clock myself next time, but I swear I can do the first puzzle in maybe 15-20 seconds, and the switches I can do while going around the map in the first place to turn on generators.

The stqves really aren't a hassle if you only do one, or maybe two. Even at that point, 2 staves is still only half of the first step in the easter egg. Not even close to the remaining tasks, which I'll list here for effect.

After upgrading 2 staves (which I'll say you did generously. I normally only upgrade one for solo runs) you still need to:

Upgrade 2 more staffs. That doubles what you've already done. If the EE was done here, THEN I'd say you do half by upgrading one or two staves.

Then you need to get the melee. not a huge task. You might do this regardless.

Then you need to get the tactical. Kinda rough. A few players may insist this is necessary for a normal game, but I swear it isn't.

Then you need to place each staff in each pedastal. This is a pain, as 3 of the spots are inside the robots. This is like gathering the wind staff all over again. Not required unless you are doing an EE game.

Then you need to throw a beacon on a certain spot while pressing a button inside a robot's head. also a pain. Does nothing for you unless you want to do the EE.

Release Maxis and fight 6 Panzers (4?) Does nothing for you unkess you do the EE.

Get zombie blood to shoot down a plane, and get it again to kill a unique zombie. Also sounds a little rough, right? Well you dont need to do this either unless you're playing for the EE.

Then you need to punch zombies in the excavation site to get your super fists. Not rough unless you wait really long. Not neede unless you're doing the EE.

Then you need to kill zombies in the crazy place untill the portal opens. Release Maxis.

Now you're done. The super fists and Not-so-crazy place are EE rewards, no different than how 8 permanent perks are the Moon and Shang rewards.

Only the first few steps could be considered "forced" but really they aren't. I don't think you need the melee, even though it isn't that hard to get. And you really don't need the tacticals. Upgrading one or two staves is the only step I'd agree would be in eavh players best interests, and as you can see from the listing above, that is barely 1/8th of the EE. Not even close to 1/2.

[DeathBringerZen]

Now you're done. The super fists and Not-so-crazy place are EE rewards, no different than how 8 permanent perks are the Moon and Shang rewards.

It is nothing like getting the Moon reward. For a start, the super fists are completely useless. They miss all the time when going in for a punch and the recoil is far too slow.

As for the walls falling, well I can have that without doing the EE if I leave the staffs, which I do when I play a rare game.

In regards to it being half the EE. It pretty much is. You have to do a fair amount of steps to get them upgraded, and once upgraded there is not much left to do to finish the EE. On solo it's not so bad upgrading one though, but you are made to get the fists in order to upgrade, and I would rather not have them tbh. They are awful. I can understand if some people enjoy the map still though, but I find the tasks extremely tedious.

EE aside, the map is ok as I said previously, but it's not great. Not by a long shot.

[MysteryMachineX]

Are we drifting away? Yes.

... What exactly is the problem here?

Super Mario Bros. > Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels

No change whatsoever. Fans are unhappy that it is just a harder version of the game.

Super Mario Bros. > Super Mario Bros. 2

Too much change. Fans are unhappy that it is so dissimilar from the previous game.

Super Mario Bros. > Super Mario Bros. 3

Just right.

Some of you think this game is the Lost Levels. Some think it is SMB2. It is an argument without a winner. In the end, ALL video game sequels aim for difference and similarity. It takes the right combination to get it right. And they got it right. Don't believe me? Look at the sales figures. Personal preference on the combination can differ greatly from person to person.

[Chopper]

I'm on my phone so not going to quote but mega and MMX hit the nail on the head.

People seem to overestimate how long it takes to build one staff, and underestimate just how much longer the ee takes.

[DeathBringerZen]

People seem to overestimate how long it takes to build one staff, and underestimate just how much longer the ee takes.

Building them is not so bad. It's the process in upgrading them. It is a fairly lengthy and required obtaining unrelated things, like the thunder fists.

But you are right about the EE for sure. Having reviewed it in my mind, there is still a handful of tricky steps afterwards.

Still... the process is still tedious in my opinion, though that is just my opinion, and I know that it is not the opinion of everyone.

Still feel the EE is unrewarding though and not very good either. I did however find the challenge feature a nice touch.

[Stop Mocking Me0]

And we get to the root of the issue: The map is tedious... UMBELEIVABLY tedious...

So was tranzit, but not der reise, nor moon, nor kino, nor any other map before BO2....