Are we drifting away from "Classic" Zombies?

[TheBSZombie]

This map really isnt tedious unless you make it tedious. Most staffs can be built and upgraded while killing zombies. Yea you might have to slow down a little bit at parts, especially the part under the PaP but besides that just kill zombies while upgrading if you are comfortable doing so and all of a sudden its not (as) tedious.

[Stop Mocking Me0]

This map really isnt tedious unless you make it tedious. Most staffs can be built and upgraded while killing zombies. Yea you might have to slow down a little bit at parts, especially the part under the PaP but besides that just kill zombies while upgrading if you are comfortable doing so and all of a sudden its not (as) tedious.

Then the game is too boring and plain to NOT progress in the Easter egg, and when you actually do it becomes tedious and boring... Basicly you choose to be labored and powerful or bored and weak... Either way, it's not fun... But more importantly: Moon: infinite powered wonder weapon: No Easter egg: Easter egg rewards all 8 perks

Origins: strong weapon rewarded after tedious tasks, all 9 perks available by even MORE tedious tasks.

There's no reward in doing the Easter egg.... None

[MegaAfroMan]

Building them is not so bad. It's the process in upgrading them. It is a fairly lengthy and required obtaining unrelated things, like the thunder fists.

For what staff do you need the thunderfists?

Upgrading the thunderfists is an EE reward, not a gameplay mechanic. It isn't necessary. We only have one other map with an upgradeable melee, so it isn't something we typically get either.

[MegaAfroMan]

Then the game is too boring and plain to NOT progress in the Easter egg, and when you actually do it becomes tedious and boring... Basicly you choose to be labored and powerful or bored and weak... Either way, it's not fun... But more importantly: Moon: infinite powered wonder weapon: No Easter egg: Easter egg rewards all 8 perks

Origins: strong weapon rewarded after tedious tasks, all 9 perks available by even MORE tedious tasks.

There's no reward in doing the Easter egg.... None

Firstly, this isn't even a response to the part you had quoted. He was saying you can kill zombies while upgrading. You then said, yeah but it's boring because I either have to not get awesome stuff, or get awesome stuff after doing tedious work.

Also, Moon required 2 people to do. Origins requires 1. Although it is many times easier with 2.

And, Moon required you to have done Shang (Unbelievably tedious) and CotD (kind of tedious) before. Origins has no pre-requisites. If you want to compare Moon to a map, it has to be Buried. It isn't fair to compare the EE of Moon with the EE of Origins.

Anywho,

As I pointed out, you are SEVERELY overestimating the time it takes to build and upgrade the staves. In a 4 player game, yes you'll upgrade all the staves, but unless you play with terrible teammates, you personally will only do one. This shouldn't take you more than maybe 5 minutes to assemble and upgrade doing extra things you wouldn't normally do. With most staves and ideal conditions, I'd say even less.

Lightning you should be able to do mid round, with no time wasted or spent just doing tedious tasks.

Fire is similar.

Ice and wind require a little more work in my opinion, but again, if it's taking you 10+ minutes with a crawler, you are doing it wrong. It is that simple.

Even with all 4 staves upgraded, you are nowhere near done with the EE.

Hell, even with all 4 staves, and the tactical and melee, you aren't even quite halfway done yet.

The EE rewards are given as you go, with the final 2 being Upgraded fists, and the Not-So-Crazy place.

(Yes you can have the not-so-crazy place by sacrificing the staves, the point is the combination is the reward)

This reward isn't as epic as moon, or buried. But it is a lot better than CotD, Tranzit, Die Rise, and Ascension. At least in my opinion, and it isn't half as tedious as Shangri-La's EE or Buried EE. Moon trumps it, but that is one map, not all 18 other maps.

As people have said already, this map is only tedious if you make it tedious.

There is no reason you can't build and upgrade the staves quickly and mid round, without having to do more than maybe one extra lap around the map than usual.

[GameChanger]

Thanks everyone for the replies! It's great to see that so many people can articulate thoughts better than me. Your posts have given me a new perspective to the maps (How tedious they are, and how forced the EEs are).

I dont understand why you guys say that the easter is forced? Is it cus samantha is continuously running her mouth?

That, and simply getting the Wonder Weapon(s) and "Pack a Punching" them is a huge chunk of a the Side Quest. By the time you're set up for a long game, you pretty much have most of the Easter Egg done.

How can we go from a map like Moon, where we do the EE every game because it enhances the experience to a map like Origins where we do the EE once and NEVER want to do it again!?

I know I'm not directly answering you're question, but Moon's Easter Egg was high risk and high reward. All the perks in the map for the rest of the game!? With Origins, all you get was Super Fists (which don't seem much useful with all the other powerful weapons unless all 4 players can't somewhere) and the Not-So-Crazy Place (which isn't worth the effort by itself considering there's already at least 4 places to run trains at on the map).

Off topic, but

However I hope they fall back on requiring many door purchases to move forward in a map, and leave the bank out.

I think the bank could work in the next game. There was a post earlier this year which I can't find for the life of me that said something like the Bank could be open with a ridiculous amount of Monkey Bombs (Like 48) and over 15k points to prevent a 20-hour round 1.

[MegaAfroMan]

Thanks everyone for the replies! It's great to see that so many people can articulate thoughts better than me. Your posts have given me a new perspective to the maps (How tedious they are, and how forced the EEs are).

I dont understand why you guys say that the easter is forced? Is it cus samantha is continuously running her mouth?

That, and simply getting the Wonder Weapon(s) and "Pack a Punching" them is a huge chunk of a the Side Quest. By the time you're set up for a long game, you pretty much have most of the Easter Egg done.

THIS IS NOT TRUE. IT IS AN EXTREME OVER-EXAGGERATION.

You'd know this if you read the input Chopper, and myself, and many others gave.

I'm pretty sure even Zen conceded that although he still thinks it is too much work, it isn't close to half or most of the EE.

[DeathBringerZen]

For what staff do you need the thunderfists?

Upgrading the thunderfists is an EE reward, not a gameplay mechanic. It isn't necessary. We only have one other map with an upgradeable melee, so it isn't something we typically get either.

I was under the assumption that you needed to kill zombies with the thunder fists down in the crazy place when upgrading the staffs, but I now believe that may not be the case.

If so, then it is not so bad, but it still does not make me feel any differently towards the map unfortunately. I just don't really enjoy it that much.

I get what you are saying about comparing Moon with Buried as opposed to Origins, but if that was the case, then surely we should have expected something that could be seen as being more epic than all the perks permanently?

I know that sounds terribly selfish, but at the end of the day Treyarch know what we want. We wanted rewards and things that were worth going for.

Origins did not really give us anything. I know people say we get opened crazy place, upgraded fists and the drone upgraded, but that is not really a great reward. The fists are very glitchy and the crazy place is not so big and spacious when 4 people are down there together.

I also find the reward not appealing enough to warrant doing it every game, which is a shame.

[TEX]

I feel we can still get the classic zombies feeling if we ignore the EEs, open PaP and run and gun till we die

[MegaAfroMan]

I was under the assumption that you needed to kill zombies with the thunder fists down in the crazy place when upgrading the staffs, but I now believe that may not be the case.

If so, then it is not so bad, but it still does not make me feel any differently towards the map unfortunately. I just don't really enjoy it that much.

I get what you are saying about comparing Moon with Buried as opposed to Origins, but if that was the case, then surely we should have expected something that could be seen as being more epic than all the perks permanently?

I know that sounds terribly selfish, but at the end of the day Treyarch know what we want. We wanted rewards and things that were worth going for.

Origins did not really give us anything. I know people say we get opened crazy place, upgraded fists and the drone upgraded, but that is not really a great reward. The fists are very glitchy and the crazy place is not so big and spacious when 4 people are down there together.

I also find the reward not appealing enough to warrant doing it every game, which is a shame.

I suppose that is fair enough. No you don't need the fists. Which would explain a large part of our differences on how long the upgrade process takes.

I do agree that it isn't compelling to do the EE in every game, or even at all.

But personally I never did for any other map either. Moon was the one anomaly, and I personally think the opposite, in that Moon was TOO easy, and spoiled us TOO much.

Sure it was rough and tedious to do Shang, and kind of rough to do CotD, but after doing it once, you were set for the remainder of your days. Moon's EE on a good day can be done in a few rounds, and in maybe 15 minutes. It is really easy.

Then it takes a lot of the challenge out of the game, as you never have to reperk, and you have all of the perks. We're spoiled by it.

Buried had an even more extreme ending (Ricky gave us a 4th slot and a perma firesale I believe) but you could only do it under very specific circumstances. Everyone had to have all of the 3 EEs for the N4 maps done and all done for the same "master". After pushing the button, you'd need to do them all over again, to do it again.

So very very very tedious. Origins might take longer and be weaker than we'd like, but it doesn't take as long as prepping the button for Buried.

I can agree to disagree on whether the map motivates you to play it. That is your opinion. I'm just sorry to hear that you don't love the things in this map as much as I do, because I'd be very happy if we had BO3 maps built off of an Origins template (like how all BO1 maps were built roughly off of Der Riese). It's sad to realize that some people would be miserable with that outcome, because I wouldn't want that.

[Stop Mocking Me0]

Yeah but either way you look at it, the EE in moon, or even shangri la, was more rewarding then this one, as one could gain all perks and redo that every game, meaning you had infinite shots at a good reward, where as here you get either one shot at a good reward, or infinite shots at a almost worthless reward... It's degeneration....

[GameChanger]

THIS IS NOT TRUE. IT IS AN EXTREME OVER-EXAGGERATION.

You'd know this if you read the input Chopper, and myself, and many others gave.

I'm pretty sure even Zen conceded that although he still thinks it is too much work, it isn't close to half or most of the EE.

You know what? That's honestly on me, my apologies. At the time, I was thinking in terms of difficulty instead of properly thinking of the amount of steps, since in my opinion Little Lost Girl is much more doable compared to other side quests if you're still on a low round and totally focused on completing it.

[MegaAfroMan]

I honestly think (aside from the difficulty of receiving all of the required items from the box) that Moon's is by far the easiest.

[Stop Mocking Me0]

Oh yeah that was simple: Run with wave gun in biodome until a drop came---> throw gershes---> hack drop---> max amo---> repeat... What else would you need?

[XxJason LivesxX]

I reckon that some people who hate Origins, love Tranzit. Damned if I know why, but I'm sure there is an answer.

No I hated Tranzit as well, To me that map was the start of the tedium that would infect the rest of BO2 zombie maps. I got to the mid 30's on that map and pretty much never played again.

Here's the thing, when Ghosts comes out, I'll be trading in BO2. I've never done that before. I still have Blops1 and plan on keeping it, but I don't think I'll have much use for BO2. When my friends and I play "zombies" it's not even a question of what game to play. we haven't really played any BO2 maps since about a week after Origins release

It's a sad state of affairs when I'm looking forward to an IW game to satiate my Co-Op needs... :|

But since I don't want to be all Negative I will say I really liked the addition of the Grief Gamemode.

[Rissole25]

Not having a go at you Mocking, but don't you have anything positive to say about Origins? Seems like you're focusing on the negatives, exaggerating some things, and just ignoring the positives.

The Easter Egg rewards were abit weird though.

TranZit's is understandable, could've unlocked a Death Machine power-up and boosted buildables that last longer.

Die Rise's would have been alright if it wasn't so easy to get perk bottles. A Permanent Key (or Skeleton Key) could've been added, so you could call the Elevators whenever.

Mob of the Dead's was pretty unique, ending the game. I suppose for the next MOTD game or a couple, an extra Afterlife could be added, so 2 for Co-Op.

Buried is permanent perks. Edwards Endgame has permanent Fire Sale and extra weapon slot. Ludvig's endgame has just the Richtofen Zombie dropping power-ups. The power-ups should've included a BonFire Sale, and weapon drops that includes the Death Machine, PPSh-41, Thundergun and either Gersch Device or Hells Retriever.

Origins, the reward were just all the upgrades you get and cleared Crazy Place. But they could've awarded permanent perks, golden shovel and helmet, and Generators always stay on so no Templars attacking, and PaP costs 1000 I guess. All during the time the egg is completed but before you go into the portal.

[Stop Mocking Me0]

No actually... Aside from the PAP camo, the starter pistol, and the dig feature, I honestly do hate the rest of the map...

[DeathBringerZen]

I do agree that it isn't compelling to do the EE in every game, or even at all.

But personally I never did for any other map either. Moon was the one anomaly, and I personally think the opposite, in that Moon was TOO easy, and spoiled us TOO much.

Moon was easy when played with 2 players, but 3&4 player games could see the excavator not come until the later rounds so it added a bit of challenge to it.

It was also the final DLC, so was nice to have such an epic reward that would help the map become very popular amongst the fans.

EE's are what helped prolong the longevity of maps, and none of the EE's in BO2 are worth doing. Origins should have been the epic EE that you would want to do every time. Treyarch were well aware that this is what the fans expected, and even trolled us throughout the map by having Samantha tell us that "when we free her, we will be rewarded beyond our imagination".

Hmm...

Either way, the Origins map itself is ok, but I found the EE in it's entirety completely terrible. I did not enjoy doing any of it when we did it first time and find all the features within the map poorly executed.

Take the perks for example. If all 4 players want to have 8-9 perks each, it would take a crazy high round to achieve. What is even the point then!?

The thunder fists have got me down more times than I can count. The terrible knifing system in BO2 is to blame there, and the crazy place is not the best of rewards in my opinion.

I understand that you may think it is a great map with great features, but a lot of people do not. Unfortunately, this is a debate that will go nowhere because opinions do vary but apart from a few comments here and there, everyone else I speak to hates it, and from a friends list made up with only fellow slayers, I have no one on my friends list who still plays it... from 100 people!

[Chopper]

So strange how the opinions are so split on this. Some like it, some hate it, some like parts of it.

Any reward for any EE, is ultimately fairly negligible. Certainly with 'perma' perks, especially Tombstone it's not so important.

So it seems to come down to the fun aspect. If you want to do an EE to gain 8 permanent perks, that's cool.

I'm guessing you are doing it for fun cos Moon is so simple, you really don't need this.

Ultimately it all comes down to fun. None of the EEs are worth doing just to extend how high a round you can get to.

When I look at it like this, they are all laborious, and ultimately not worth doing for high rounds.

Shang maybe an exception.....but you need 4 players, and about a week to get all 4 people with 4 perks. And then you are going to GSpawn anyway.

Back on the actual original topic.....

Of course we are drifting away from Classic Zombies.....we have to, things have to evolve and change.

And again, any evolution is going to be both liked and disliked (and rejected ).

[Stop Mocking Me0]

Zombies and the world do not stand still... Carnage is the law of re-life.... And those who look only to the past or the present... Are certain to miss the future!

[Chopper]

Zombies and the world do not stand still... Carnage is the law of re-life.... And those who look only to the past or the present... Are certain to miss the future!

Great summation quote.

[Dahniska]

I personally love Origins. And I used to hate MotD, but now I think it's one of the best maps for BO2.

Mob and Origins are the two maps closest to Classic Zombies in BO2, mainly because you must earn everything as you go along. I love the fact that you have to earn everything. It makes the game fun and challenging. While I loved Tranzit a lot, especially before any map packs were released, I think the bank (and the more recent persistent perks added by Vengeance DLC) hurt the game and cause more pain than gain. The bank encourages players to be lazy and takes away the need for survival skills and careful point accumulation/spending. The persistent upgrades (especially Tombstone) make the game far too easy, or are distracting from the true heart of Zombies gameplay.

As far as the easter eggs... well, I think that there is too much emphasis on them in BO2, yes. However, I do like that in MotD/Origins, the things you earn to equip yourself are part of the easter egg. Makes sense to me.

I hope more maps are made like Origins. That map has probably become my favorite because it is the hardest map in the game (I'm not counting Survival modes). It takes work to succeed in that map and it's not forgiving of error, and it rewards smart decision making. Now that is what I want to see in a zombies map. Yes, making the staffs and doing the easter egg is tedious, but think of how good the staffs are. The fact that you get such good weapons just for doing fetch, puzzle solving and killing zombies is really cool. I feel similarly about Mob.

Die Rise was a bit like these when it was released, but it was a bit of Tranzit style too. I liked it a lot at release because I felt it was a good fusion of Classic Zombies and the newer style introduced in Tranzit. I'm sad that it was patched later to have a bank and to ruin the Sliquifier, turning it into more of a Buried style map.

At the end of the day, I feel like Treyarch really tried to make a map for each type of zombies player: there's Buried for noobs/casual players, Mob, Die Rise and TranZit for intermediate level players, and Origins for the hardcore players. At least that's how it seems to me.

As InfestLithium said, they do have to change the game up a little bit. I'm overall pleased with Black Ops 2 Zombies and I also think that Origins is one of the best maps yet. I valued Tranzit for the same reason as Origins: I love replayability. If you don't like the map, it's your choice, but you're missing out. However, there's a map for everyone.

[Hells Warrrior]

That is not exactly true though, as a lot of people I know are not really EE players and they seem to hate it BECAUSE it is EE driven.

I disagree, it is only Easter egg driven if you want it to be Easter egg driven. For instance, if you want to get the ice staff, you have to dig to get the ice parts and then go down to the crazy place and get the crystal and then go to to the dig site and get the staff.

If you want to upgrade it, then you have got to do the processes for upgrading it. In that sense, yes it is Easter egg driven.

The challenge with this map isn't doing the Easter egg, it's not doing the Easter egg. Switch on the generators so the PaP machine works and pap your gun.

Now get to a high round with just a papped weapon and no staff, you may find a very challenging and exciting map in origins.

[Hells Warrrior]

I feel we can still get the classic zombies feeling if we ignore the EEs, open PaP and run and gun till we die

Agreed.

[Hells Warrrior]

A couple of things spring to mind in all honestly and in defence of Treyarch.

"damned if you do, damned if you don't"

It's a buggy game granted, doesn't matter what map on BO2 you are on. However, they gave us Zombies when the didn't have too. They have tried to accomodate the classic zombie players and the new breed of zombie player.

MoTD & Origins took us back to earning our way through a map, having to spend points to progress. Granted by round 10, everything is generally open on MoTD and Origins but my point stands. Both maps end the game "by choice" although you don't need to, both maps give you exactly the same as other maps REWARDS

I hear you say, how can they be rewards? Simple really, how is having all perks any different from having persistent perks? Yet, some people don't like the addition of persistent perks, but they are just the same as having all perks for doing an Easter egg without doing the Easter egg.

The staves & acidgat are a wonder weapon and can get you to an a high round, is this not a reward?

You can get a free papped MG & a free blundergat, not Easter egg related and is a reward.

One inch punch and hells retriever are both one hit kill weapons, upgraded are one hit kills to mid 30's - must be considered a reward. One you need to kill zombies on the bridge using just the hells retriever and one you must kills zombies in the dig site usingt he one inch punch. That can be challenging, espcially with Brutus arriving on the bridge and the Pandzer coming down into the dig site.

Overall, when you look at every single map that offers an Easter egg or a reward, they are all offering the same thing but just in different ways.

In my own personal opinions, Origins is probably one of the top 5 maps that have been released. I would have Shangri La, MoTD, Acension, Der Reise and Origins in my top five but that's a different topic.

[DeathBringerZen]

Now get to a high round with just a papped weapon and no staff, you may find a very challenging and exciting map in origins.

My highest round without building any staffs in round 57 with no downs. Was no challenge whatsoever to be honest. That is one of the reasons I don't enjoy it.

I get what you are saying about the 'Damned if they do and damned if they don't' though. Not every map is going to be to every ones taste, but I just felt Origins was not a good map for a final DLC. It has no holding power for me personally. It got boring after a week of release and I have only played it once since the first week.

Tried going back but after a few rounds I just give up on it. Same for most BO2 maps. There is no challenge to any of them. Maybe NTZ but I personally think that was a wasted and rushed opportunity. All the other maps are extremely easy to hit high rounds, and it is more so that zombies has become time based rather than skill based.

My own view is that Treyarch intentionally made zombies easy on BO2 to cater for the people who were not so good at the game mode in an attempt at cashing in on the mode more so than ever. On WaW and BO1 it as a challenge to hit high rounds.

This is not the case anymore. :(