Zombies Can Learn Something From Extinction

[Rickety Cricket]

So while zombies is out of season, I decided to give Ghosts a try. I wasn't too impressed with the campaign and multiplayer didn't interest me. Extinction however, is a different story. I played it a few times and wasn't very good but as I kept going and going I started to absolutely love it. It has that zombies survival feel with a mix of interesting challenges and objectives that keeps the game from getting boring and repetitive. Playing all of this Extinction made me think an awful lot about zombies and how what Extinction is doing right could easily work in zombies. So I'd like to break down a few things I think zombies could learn from Extinction.

 

AI:

The first thing I tried to figure out with Extinction is how can I manipulate the AI to survive. I quickly learned that you almost can't. I was actually incredibly pleased to discover this. I was always one of the few that was 100% against running trains in zombies. I always found it to be a ***** and easy way to win. Not to mention that it was boring as hell and it made bad and rude players think they were walking gods because they could achieve high rounds in solo. If you try running away the scouts will catch you. You try camping, the scorpions and seekers obliterate you. The only way to survive is with good team work and smart tactics. They could look at how the aliens act and have the zombies do some of the same things. Have the zombies lunge at you from a distance and slow you down, zombies that can actually run faster than you and zombies that can tell where you're going to move and can cut you off or keep you from going anywhere. If zombies were to implement an AI that was as smart as the Extinction AI not only would the game be a nice new challenge for new and old players, it would mean that players would be more inclined to work together and play smarter because alone, they wouldn't stand a chance. I feel like that's what zombies should be about, working together with your team to survive and discover the mysteries behind the game.

 

Special enemies:

I've always like games that include special enemies. Games like Left 4 Dead, Gears of War and many others did a great job implementing special enemies. I feel Extinction also did a great job of this, not so much in zombies. In Extinction there are a great variety of special enemies that can redirect your focus and change how you're playing in seconds. It keeps you on your toes and keeps the whole experience interesting. The specials in zombies didn't really do that, they just sort of annoyed players and could be handled pretty easily. Take the Panzer from Origins for example. It's not a constant threat, you know when it's coming and if anyone on the team has at least a Ray Gun of PaP weapon it can be dealt with in a matter of seconds and won't be seen again for a few more rounds. Once the Panzer is gone you just go right back to what you were doing before. They tried to amp it up by sending more than one in later rounds but that just turns a 30 second chore into a 60 second one. Same with Brutus in MotD, he spawns, you kill him and that's it. The threat is gone in seconds and everything goes back to the way it was before. The threat is always there in Extinction. The scorpions don't just disappear after death, more and more come and they never stop. I'd like to see some more challenging specials in zombies, one's that offer a constant threat that if not handled alongside the regular hordes, could very easily be your demise.

 

Ranking System:

Some people think that the ranking system is zombies isn't very good. I am one of those people. I hate the zombies ranking system. I like the idea of having a ranking system in zombies so you have an idea of how experienced a player is and how much time they've spent on the game. But having a ranking system based on stats is a horrible idea in zombies in particular because it can be easily manipulated and isn't always a good representation of a players knowledge. I've ran into a lot of high ranked zombies players who are clueless and refuse to do anything other than train in order to keep that rank. The Extinction ranking system i think is the best way to handle a ranking system in a game mode like Extinction and zombies. You gain experience as you play and get rewarded for doing well and playing as a team. I hated how everything was all secret with the ranking system, the whole mystery thing is really cool in the story but let's keep that there. There was absolutely no need to keep how the ranking system worked a secret. In the end all it did was frustrate players and by the time I figured it out it was way too late to dig myself out of the hole. I really preferred the stat tracking in Extinction too, it was detailed and layed out much better than zombies stats were.

 

My idea for a zombies ranking system and stat tracking:

As you play you gain experience and the better you do the more experience you gain and once the match ends you get that experience. However training and kill farming could be used to gain rank which is why other factors and requirements could stop that. For example, say you're a level 10, in order to reach 11 you need to complete a challenge. Such as complete a a game without using perks and complete a minimum of 15 rounds or something like that. I'd like to see prestiges too, but requirements for prestiging would require much more, like completing an Easter Egg or something of that nature. That way the players who do invest a lot of time, try and use teamwork will hold that high rank that they deserve and you can have a broad range of ranks as opposed to just five. With a more broad number based ranking system it's much easier to identify the type of player in your game. As I mentioned before I would like to see a more detailed stat tracking system, I think being able to see stats you have with a particular gun would be nice too.

 

Those are my big three things that I think Extinction did great and would work in zombies without completely revamping the whole game. Keep in mind that these are just my opinions, if you agree or disagree please reply, I want to know what everyone else thinks. Thanks!

[TehGKBrief]

Agree with this 100%. Nothing else I can really say, Treyarch need to freshen zombies up a bit.

[MegaAfroMan]

As far as the AI upgrades go, I can tell you while it'd be interesting, it would effectively change zombies entirely. It'd be a completely different game. If they added a few more unique zombies, it could either be received well, or hated.

In BO2, the speed of the zombies can vary significantly, even in high rounds, and in some areas, those slow walking zombies do exactly what you're hoping Treyarch would add. They get in the way in small loops in close quaters.

I think part of what many (not all) players like about zombies is the sort of rush associated with breaking new ground in high rounds, but also a rush associated with pulling off a difficult train.

Knowing that one minor screw up could spiral to your death just makes it all the more enjoyable.

With special enemies, I disagree. Treyarch did a fine job. Look at your own comments again. The problem is the weapons. If extinction had wonder weapons, like 3 shot burst laser rifles, or mythic staves that shoot raw elemental power, then the Scorpions would be just as easy to deal with as Brutus, Panzer, or the Napalm/Shriekers. If Wonder Weapons didn't exist, then 3 Panzers spawning at once in the late game would most certianly increase pressure, if not guarantee a down. Yes the scorpions do respawn continuously, but it wouldn't necessarily be a huge obstacle to pick them off as they appear if you had Wonder Weapons.

Not that I'm saying zombies should ditch Wonder Weapons. Zombies just doesn't quite work without wonder weapons with the current health system

The ranking system was awful and does need to be changed. I agree with you on that point.

[ZombieOfTheDead]

If you ask me, what zombies might need to survive is a drastic change. I don't care what half of the zombies players think (many are little kids, anyways), we need to make it more difficult. It's just more fun with the AI variations. If we really want to make people happy, they could add higher difficulties with these AI differentiations. I mean, we have two difficulties as is, the harder ones would be for pro players. Maybe trains could finally die.

 

Specials are fairly good as is, IMO. Them panzers.... tough, but not annoying (like denizens).

[MegaAfroMan]

See that's where I, and many others would disagree with you. I don't want trains to die. I love training. No Mans Land has me hooked on trying to pull the most chaotic trains together. It's such a rush.

To me, training isn't boring. However I could agree that in some circumstances (PhD platform on ascension perhaps) it can be. Often times these boring trains are also among the slowest, and therefore you shouldn't feel like you're making a decision to make the game harder by training elsewhere just to make it harder, you're also making it much faster.

I don't see why zombies need anything to survive. From what I see it is doing just fine, and I'm sure it'll will be able to hang on until the next installment.

How am I so sure people wouldn't like radical AI changes? Look how many people complained endlessly about all of BO2 for including such simple changes as buildables and fewer insta-kill Wonder Weapons, and making crawlers die if you got more than 550 or so feet away from them.

The community, at least around here and on my friends list, was pretty upset. I don't forsee zombies being received well with a radical AI change. I could be wrong, but most likely it would be seen as the death of CoD Zombies. It may then transition into a new gamemode called zombies but with a different feel, or it may be shunned to oblivion.

I personally like it the way it is, and the way things have been progressing.

[ZombieOfTheDead]

See that's where I, and many others would disagree with you. I don't want trains to die. I love training. No Mans Land has me hooked on trying to pull the most chaotic trains together. It's such a rush.

To me, training isn't boring. However I could agree that in some circumstances (PhD platform on ascension perhaps) it can be. Often times these boring trains are also among the slowest, and therefore you shouldn't feel like you're making a decision to make the game harder by training elsewhere just to make it harder, you're also making it much faster.

I don't see why zombies need anything to survive. From what I see it is doing just fine, and I'm sure it'll will be able to hang on until the next installment.

How am I so sure people wouldn't like radical AI changes? Look how many people complained endlessly about all of BO2 for including such simple changes as buildables and fewer insta-kill Wonder Weapons, and making crawlers die if you got more than 550 or so feet away from them.

The community, at least around here and on my friends list, was pretty upset. I don't forsee zombies being received well with a radical AI change. I could be wrong, but most likely it would be seen as the death of CoD Zombies. It may then transition into a new gamemode called zombies but with a different feel, or it may be shunned to oblivion.

I personally like it the way it is, and the way things have been progressing.

You like running around a circle for hours on end? No matter how chaotic it is, it's still pretty much the same after awhile. That is why it needs a change. I know you won't agree with me, but I still need to explain.

 

Also, again, different difficulties. Even if there weren't, sometimes unexpected changes turn out better than the old same stuff.

 

People complain about EVERYTHING. It's ridiculous. All of the things you mentioned made the game better, IMO. Not always buildables, some of those made things too easy as well. The point is, some change is good. Keeps you on your toes, and continues to make the game fun. I know so many people that are bored with zombies because it's just more of the same.

[MegaAfroMan]

I like running circles more than the alternative of sitting in one spot if you want to oversimplify things to a ridiculous level.

I don't agree, not because I don't want to. Simply because this is how I prefer the game to be played.

It's not as static and boring as you are trying to make it sound. It really doesn't get repetitive if you do it right. That's the whole definition of chaotic.

I respect our differences, and if Treyarch could make the game with two settings, that'd be fine with me. However, I don't like your statements of train running being boring and simple circle running. I also don't like you claiming it is a higher difficulty by changing the AI so training is impossible. It's not a higher difficulty, it's a completely different core game.

If trains were really such a simple and easy thing, then there would be many more players of knife or shotgun rank in BO2, and many many more players above round 30 in the global leaderboards.

And I'm not a pro at this myself. 30 is my average. My highest round is just past 50. Yet I still support training fully.

It's not that I don't think a survival game in which training cannot be done is bad.

And it's not that radical changes can't result in positive outcomes.

It's just not what I want for zombies.

If AI were to be changed, I could see more special zombies. Having more frequent hazards to deal with while training would ramp up the difficulty and chaotic nature of training even more so.

Speed should never pass or match the player though. Or else training becomes mostly impossible. If the health system were to be redone to reach a peak, rather than increase to infinity, I could see matching the players speed being managable. Otherwise, it'd essentially put a cap on the game for max level. There would be a point at which the zombies are too fast to out run, and too strong to kill making the survival aspect pointless. This could be remedied by adding an ending, but so many survival games follow that philosophy already, and it just isn't what zombies should be.

Also, I support the buildables and speed changes and crawler deaths added in BO2. Some of the maps weren't quite up to par, but 90% of the core game changes I enjoyed. I'd like to see more, but to me, survival is the root of zombies, and it is just a fact that there will be a point usually pre 50, at which it is impossible to survive without training.

Either way, I respect our disagreements, and do hope others chime in on their thoughts.

Happy slaying, in whichever way you most prefer.

[ZombieOfTheDead]

I wouldn't say changing AI is a completely different game. Rather, it is the same game, you just have to be smarter with your strategy. Theoretically if the AI was changed, you wouldn't be able to sit in one place forever, either.

 

It's not that running trains is easy. Rather, after a long time it just gets tedious and boring. Yes, chaos can change that, but even after awhile that just stops being fun. High rounds just aren't fun to achieve.

 

I can respect that it's not  what you want, but hey, at the same time I don't really want zombies to stay the same either. Guess we're at an impasse   Also totally agree that if this changes, the zombie's health or some other factor would have to cap to be balanced. 

 

Either way, fun discussing with you 

[MegaAfroMan]

Likewise.

As long is there is always a way to get to that next round, I'm happy. If it can be out-gunning, or out-thinking, instead of out-running, I'll give it a fair shot and try to adapt.

[Rickety Cricket]

Like it or not training is huge in zombies. Whereas I may not like it, I still acknowledge that fact. I like the idea of having two separate difficulties or settings. Well three actually, assuming that Easy mode would still be there. You could have Easy, Classic (which would just be exactly what it is now) and Hard. In hard mode you'll see the smarter AI. It would also be cool to see something like you mentioned where the health caps off. Say the health caps off at 20, then after that you'll start to see the more advanced AI changes. Either way I want to see something different and face a new challenge. I'm glad you guys were able to give your input!

[MegaAfroMan]

After thinking about, I came up with the following:

Health increase would remain linear, rather than exponential. It currently IS linear until round 10 I believe. Or at least it was in Black Ops. The health would cap off around 30 in such a way that a hordesworth (25 zombies or so) could barely be killed by one clip of a PaPed weapon. After that health would rise in an exponentially decaying manner. It'd get higher, but by less and less each round.

Average zombie speed would increase in a linear fashion BUT zombies would have set speeds.

For example zombies could walk (1) jog (5) or run (10). So if we have an average speed of 3, we'd see a rougly even mix of Jogging zombies and walking zombies.

At 8 We'd see mostly runners, with a few joggers, and a random walker here or there.

After zombies hit their current max speed in BO2, they will increase in an exponential decay, never passing the player's speed.

Starting around round 20 specialized zombies would start appearing.

These zombies are not completely unique boss types. They are more like sprinters from Verruckt, and Armored Soldiers from Die Rise. The rate at which these zombies appear alongside normal zombies increases untill approximately 30% of all zombies are specialized.

Starting around round 40 chaotic pathfinding scripts will begin to interrupt normal play.

These would start of just causing something simple, like making all or some of the current zombies pause in place for a second or two once in a round. Then they'd start to become more frequent. Closer to 50 or 60, zombies would have rare occurances of reverse pathfinding. In which they head away from the player, rather than towards. These would only occur IF the player has been moving consistantly, and covering some x amount of distance while doing so, to avoid benefiting campers with these pauses, and to avoid campers from fooling the system by shifting left and right in place constantly.

Of course these are purely theory. I'd need to play test them myself, but I do believe this will make records past 70 very difficult to acheive, as specialized extra health zombies and boss zombies will dislodge campers, and sprinting zombies and chaotic pathfinding keeps runners on their toes. Full map loops, stopping for cover at key choke points might be mildly sucessful in this, but I am uncertain.

I would hope each map would have either a boss round, or better yet, a boss zombie which spawns during rounds, like Brutus or the Panzer.

I also would desperately hope they'd add more round based unlockables in the maps.

Like a room or two (not all rooms certainly) that only unlock after a certain round has been acheived.

And late game rewards. Super perks (like the fates from DoA) available after round x for a very high price, or something.

I also hope they keep elements from Origins, like 4 upgradeable WWs. The Challenges were also nice as none of them required you to go out of your way to get the reward. I'd like to see choices like in Moon. Take the PES to survive in space, or the Hacker to do cool stuff. Upgrade your Blundergat with Acid to make it attract zombies, or without to make it an absolute killing beast.

That's all I got.

My main hopes, whatever happens, is that:

Training survives and camping gets a much needed boost.

World Records float more around 90 to 100 rather than 200 or higher, but NOT because of damage caps and infinite enemy health.

More late game variety. As of right now, in most zombies maps (all games) there is an ideal weapon loadout, and usually an ideal perk set up. I'd like there to be at least 4 distinct and complete loadouts and set ups worth to mix and match at will.

[Rickety Cricket]

^ This is excellent. Makes training more difficult yet doesn't eradicate it completely. I especially like the part about the special zombies being more frequently integrated into the normal hordes. The whole having things unlock in higher rounds is a stellar idea. It would give you more motivation to survive and give you something to look forward to and work for in later rounds thus keeping the game fresh. I'm loving everything you're saying here man!

[Stop Mocking Me0]

I didn't like extinction for multiple reasons, and no, none of them were "because it's not zombies"… 

 

The biggest reason was: Fairness between the amount of players. Playing it on solo is infinitely more difficult then playing with friends, and I don't like that… This type of game should be just as easy with one person, and four people… 

 

Also: The achievable ending… I didn't like that… Didn't like it in MOTD, or Origins… But it's there and there ain't anything to be done about it now…