Shi No Numa is in China; Nikolai was Captured There

[Guest football5699]

Lovin the theory...

In Der Riese it is considered Somewhere Near Breslau, GERMANY. Now, Breslau is Poland but Germany was in control at the time....

So Tak, you are saying that Nikolai and Takeo were potentially at SNN twice then?

[Guest Tac]

Yeah, I think that Nikolai has been there once but was so drunk that he just stumbled in and revealed why the Russians were there, so Richtofen booked it. As for Takeo, I think he spent a good portion of his time there.

@MurderMachine: Well, it at least shows that it's possible that is was Manchuria.

[Guest football5699]

Now could it have been unit 100 or unit 561 (?)....also there were manchuria headquarters that were severly related to 731...manchuria does seem likely but i also love reading about general yamashito(a?) and his curious treasure

this is overthinking but he was assigned to the manchuria area at one point...could his treasure be the wunderwaffe

Sorry for sloppiness, i am on ipod.

[Guest Tac]

I think that for simplicity I will stick to Unit 731 as it kind of makes sense to me, no need to stray off deeper than need be if that makes sense?

[Guest MurderMachineX]

http://earthtrends.wri.org/images/maps/P1_19_MD.GIF

This is a map of major watersheds of the world. A swamp such as Shi No Numa would be fueled by a watershed. This means that Manchuria is 100% possible, since Manchuria has a major watershed.

However, I'm not entirely convinced. While it is possible, why should it be more believable than being on an actual Japanese island?

[Guest Tac]

http://earthtrends.wri.org/images/maps/P1_19_MD.GIF

This is a map of major watersheds of the world. A swamp such as Shi No Numa would be fueled by a watershed. This means that Manchuria is 100% possible, since Manchuria has a major watershed.

However, I'm not entirely convinced. While it is possible, why should it be more believable than being on an actual Japanese island?

Well, it is not necessarily more believable, it is just the only explanation that I have found. I have not found anyone post anything about a place in the Japanese islands because the Rising Sun Facility isn't a real place from what I can find, and there are no geographical markers in the map that can be used to find a location. Everything a person finds is circumstantial, this is just what I have found from the evidence.

[Guest MurderMachineX]

Hm. Well it fits. And that can possibly be enough. Do you have any references for this Russian invasion? I haven't heard of it.

[Guest Tac]

Hm. Well it fits. And that can possibly be enough. Do you have any references for this Russian invasion? I haven't heard of it.

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-hist ... -manchuria

On this day in 1945, the Soviet Union officially declares war on Japan, pouring more than 1 million Soviet soldiers into Japanese-occupied Manchuria, northeastern China, to take on the 700,000-strong Japanese army.

...

Japan had not been too worried about the Soviet Union, so busy with the Germans on the Eastern front. The Japanese army went so far as to believe that they would not have to engage a Soviet attack until spring 1946. But the Soviets surprised them with their invasion of Manchuria, an assault so strong (of the 850 Japanese soldiers engaged at Pingyanchen, 650 were killed or wounded within the first two days of fighting) that Emperor Hirohito began to plead with his War Council to reconsider surrender. The recalcitrant members began to waver.

That is why Richtofen and Takeo were still there in my eyes, they had not expected an attack and then Nikolai may have just been drunk since Stalin dropped him in the front lines and he stumbled in and told them why he was there, etc.

[Guest MurderMachineX]

Hm. That's quite... believable. Okay. You've won me over :D

[Guest Tac]

Hm. That's quite... believable. Okay. You've won me over

Yay! Very nice, I am glad I could take you to the other side :twisted:

[Guest Faust]

Great theory Tak.

Just one thing, if it was a Japan v Russia battle, how did they end up in the hands of a German?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson_v._Eisentrager

Before the war, China operated under a puppet-government led by Germany. After the Japanese surge across the far east, Japan had expanded it's boards in all directions. History has all the answers, you need only look for them.

[Guest K1llsteelr]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Japanese_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battles_of_Khalkhin_Gol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yalta_Conference

Oss in Manchuria

http://independent.academia.edu/BillStr ... _Manchuria

http://www.archives.gov/iwg/declassifie ... y-211.html

Memo from HQ, OSS, SU, Detachment 203, China Theater, requesting permission to carry out a reconnaissance trip to Manchuria, May 17, 1945, 5 pp. The memo argues that the trip would provide a chance to find out about an underground movement called the Anti-Japanese Salvation Corps, and to collect trustworthy intelligence about an area that was probably "the place where the Japanese will attempt their last stand." [WN#22870]

Draft plan to carry out the reconnaissance trip to Manchuria described above, July 6, 1945, 3 pp. [WN#22869]

Operational Plans for the reconnaissance trip to Manchuria described above, codename Ostrich, August 1945, ca., 12 pp. [WN#22865-WN#22866]

Folder entitled "Kaji & POW Projects," January 14, 1945-August 2, 1945, 200 pp. Records relating to the possible use of Japanese exiles, detainees, and/or POWS-held by the Chinese government-to prevail upon their countrymen to "desert, surrender, or take other desired action." The man mentioned most often for this was Wataru Kaji, President of the League of Establishing Democratic Japan. [WN#22857]

[Guest BlindBusDrivr]

Also to add to this. Since we know the meteor is from the Tunguska Event, it makes more sense that Japan because look at the radius of Tunguska Explosion:

So hitting that upper part of China (Manchuria) seems much more plausible that a fragment flying out to a Japanese Island.

[Guest football5699]

Tac, at this point do I even need to say you have convinced me lol.

I kinda thought that maybe the Americans maybe slightly bombed it during Doolittle's Raid during 1942. It turns out after they bombed Tokyo, they moved onto China but were very unsuccessful after Tokyo.

[Guest Faust]

I worked as a museum curator for about a year at an aviation museum in Pearl Harbor, and one of the topics we were to discuss on the tour was to Doolittle raids. After the bombing of Tokyo (their only target) several ran out of fuel and crashed in Japanese territory. Several however escaped and landed in allied China or the Soviet Union. While this is an important part of history, I don't particularly see the Doolittle raid as relevant to the story.

[Guest Tac]

We got off topic a bit in another thread, and it was brought to my attention that the Japanese called Inner Manchuria an independent state (note the inner part, Unit 731 even had facilities in outer Manchuria, outside of this independent state). Now a state means it is a territory occupied by a nation, in this case being Japan. Now, when something is called in independent state, it means there is a constitutional monarchy in that state, again, owned by Japan. The independent state has its own emperor, which Manchuria did, and can have its own government, but Manchuria didn't, because it was occupied by the Japanese.

In the early 1930s, the Japanese created a puppet-state in Manchuria, creating Manchukuo. They threw out the Chinese but to not look overly suspicious, they made a sympathetic government where the last emperor of the Qing dynasty, Puyi, technically "ruled" Manchukuo but all the power truly lied in Japanese hands. The League of Nations was incredibly angry about the Japanese setting up camp there, so we know that everyone knew it was owned, occupied, and ruled by Japan. They considered it part of their empire.

They had been there for 14 years, they showed no signs of leaving, therefore it is natural for one to call the land Japan when speaking in generalities, as they were in the intel. If they weren't speaking in generalities, then they would have specified past saying "Japan" and said a city or something of the sort, but they didn't, so they were saying things in generality.

[Guest Zombieofthedead]

We got off topic a bit in another thread, and it was brought to my attention that the Japanese called Inner Manchuria an independent state (note the inner part, Unit 731 even had facilities in outer Manchuria, outside of this independent state). Now a state means it is a territory occupied by a nation, in this case being Japan. Now, when something is called in independent state, it means there is a constitutional monarchy in that state, again, owned by Japan. The independent state has its own emperor, which Manchuria did, and can have its own government, but Manchuria didn't, because it was occupied by the Japanese.

In the early 1930s, the Japanese created a puppet-state in Manchuria, creating Manchukuo. They threw out the Chinese but to not look overly suspicious, they made a sympathetic government where the last emperor of the Qing dynasty, Puyi, technically "ruled" Manchukuo but all the power truly lied in Japanese hands. The League of Nations was incredibly angry about the Japanese setting up camp there, so we know that everyone knew it was owned, occupied, and ruled by Japan. They considered it part of their empire.

They had been there for 14 years, they showed no signs of leaving, therefore it is natural for one to call the land Japan when speaking in generalities, as they were in the intel. If they weren't speaking in generalities, then they would have specified past saying "Japan" and said a city or something of the sort, but they didn't, so they were saying things in generality.

Independent state is the exact same as independent nation, not what you said.... A state does not necessarily mean the same thing as the U.S. 50 states. The U.S. also refused to recognize Manchukuo as Japan's. The U.S. wan't actually a part of the League of nations, anyways. Japanese didn't consider it officially in their empire, and Neither did the Americans.

Also, we didn't go off topic in the other thread. We're all looking for the same thing, Shi no numa's location.

EDIT:Here. Just passing some knowledge. This is the type of state it is referring to. Here

A state that is independent, by definition, is not controlled by another state.

[Guest Tac]

An independent nation/state is exactly what I said it was. It is a territory that has its own ruler and government, except we know that while Manchuria had a Chinese ruler, it was subject to the Japanese government they put in place, hence the puppet state aspect.

[Guest Zombieofthedead]

An independent nation/state is exactly what I said it was. It is a territory that has its own ruler and government, except we know that while Manchuria had a Chinese ruler, it was subject to the Japanese government they put in place, hence the puppet state aspect.

Exactly, except for the fact that they weren't in the empire by Japan's standards, because they publicly stated that Manchuria was on its own, even if they really controlled it. And the U.S refused to recognize Manchukuo, or basically anything they did capture, as theirs.

We must find WWII vets and see what they say about this. Seriously, that's the only way we'll know for sure.

[Guest Faust]

Wouldn't be of any good use. I know WWII vets, and chances are that if you asked them anything about Manchuria that wouldn't have any idea what you are talking about.

The only issue I can see here for sure is that the 731 facility was a solid concrete building.

[Guest Zombieofthedead]

Wouldn't be of any good use. I know WWII vets, and chances are that if you asked them anything about Manchuria that wouldn't have any idea what you are talking about.

The only issue I can see here for sure is that the 731 facility was a solid concrete building.

You have a point there....

But I know from experience that WWII vets never referred to any of the places they liberated as Japan. Same with France being taken over as Germany. It falls to what the japanese call it then, and they viewed it a separate from themselves, hence why they declared it independent. In their own name, I think the list is rather small. Any that were puppet states were not declared part of their empire, but were instead grouped with the rest of Japan's empire because they were technically controlled by Japan.

[Guest Tac]

It doesn't fall to what the Japanese would call it because it was called that by the Americans, what the Japanese would call doesn't even matter. In my eyes, it would be grouped as their empire because they controlled it and ruled over it. It isn't under Chinese control, it is under Japanese control, part of their empire. If they wanted to make it under another grouping, they could have claimed the whole state of Manchuria as independent, not just the inner section.

[Guest Zombieofthedead]

It doesn't fall to what the Japanese would call it because it was called that by the Americans, what the Japanese would call doesn't even matter. In my eyes, it would be grouped as their empire because they controlled it and ruled over it. It isn't under Chinese control, it is under Japanese control, part of their empire. If they wanted to make it under another grouping, they could have claimed the whole state of Manchuria as independent, not just the inner section.

They did declare the whole state independent...

And I am just saying, Americans do not call those areas that they freed Japan, they call them the place that they are. New Guinea, Peleliu, etc.

[Guest Tac]

Actually they didn't, according to the link that YOU gave me. It says that they called INNER Manchuria independent, and not Outer Manchuria. And I get your point completely, I just worked really hard on this theory and I am not going to give it up yet just because America may not have called it Japan, if though speaking in generalities, not to mention Treyarch has admitted to not having much of anything planned out that time. I am just an anal person and want exact answers, and this is my theory which I believe to be more than plausible. That is just how I work, I want more precise answers than just "Japan."

[Guest Zombieofthedead]

Actually they didn't, according to the link that YOU gave me. It says that they called INNER Manchuria independent, and not Outer Manchuria. And I get your point completely, I just worked really hard on this theory and I am not going to give it up yet just because America may not have called it Japan, if though speaking in generalities, not to mention Treyarch has admitted to not having much of anything planned out that time. I am just an anal person and want exact answers, and this is my theory which I believe to be more than plausible. That is just how I work, I want more precise answers than just "Japan."

Outer Manchuria refers to a part of Russia, I believe. Don't quote me on that, but I think I read that somewhere.

Okay, I get what you're saying, but because of my points I obviously am not giving up either, because I actually find that way more plausible. Sometimes, things do not have to be overly complicated. That's all I'm gonna say

EDIT: Yep, outer Manchuria is russia