Agartha, Pyramids, Gateways, Hitler, Aliens, and Science

[thegoldenspork115]

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Hello all, and welcome to what I consider to be the basis of Call of Duty Zombies. What I believe was the inspiration for the game mode we all know and admire. I am presenting to you a must-read post, that, although lengthy, will provide you with a deeper understanding of the zombies universe.

Although much of the following information isn't necessarily newly found discoveries...yet it may be to some or even most...I think all of you will learn a lot from this post. While researching this topic, I was overwhelmed by how much it relates to zombies. I had never expected to find so much out of researching one simple quote from one of the playable characters in the game.

Samuel J. Stuhlinger, the character some of us love and some of us hate, has many interesting quotes revolving around conspiracy theories, government cover-ups, and alien encounters. In a couple of his quotes, he makes reference to something called the "Hollow Earth". This interested me. So I decided to do a little research. And, as I said earlier, I was shocked by how much information I found that was related to zombies. The Hollow Earth theory is so clearly seen and used in the storyline, it will baffle you.

Now i know I stated this in the preceding few sentences, but I just wanted to remind you that most of the following is not entirely new information. I've looked over this site and found a few other topics and posts that make mention of the Hollow Earth. And I've found a little of it elsewhere as well. So cheers to those people! However I wanted to go a little more in depth and explain the history of the Hollow Earth and how it directly relates to zombies.

Okay so this is how this is going to work... I'm going to write a somewhat lengthy article here, and at the end I'm going to go back and review individual parts of what I wrote(the parts that relate to zombies).

*Throughout the article, you will see numbers closed off in brackets like this [0] . This will be located immediately AFTER the term/sentence I deem worthy. So, what this means is that I considered the term/sentence before the number to be important to the zombies storyline. And when you see this number, scroll down to the bottom of the article, and there you will find a list of numbers. Find the corresponding number and it will explain what the numbered term/sentence means to the zombies story. Of course, you could just read the article without paying attention to the numbers, then go back and read the numbers at the end. This will be okay because you will still be able to understand the article without reading the numbers. Which ever way is best for you. I hope the process isn't too confusing.

Here it is guys, I apologize for the length. But not to worry, I only included the interesting stuff. Enjoy.

The Hollow Earth

By Thegoldenspork115

The Earth is Hollow, Meet the Residents

Now let me give you a run down on what the Hollow Earth idea was/is. It used to be a legitimate theory that basically said the Earth was hollow and there was a Subterranean civilization living beneath us all. A civilization that, according to the theory, inhabitants walked feet-up. In other words, the inhabitants there, would walk on the same ground we walk on, just on the other side of it. And oddly enough, these beings are often referred to as 'Denizens'. Which just means "inhabitants of a certain area"[1].

According to some sub-theories, in this Subterranean world that is often called Agartha[2], the beings are heated and their world is illuminated by the 'central sun', located at the center of the Earth, perhaps what non-believers would call the Earth's core. Between the peoples' heads and the central sun, is an atmosphere. So when they look 'up' at their sun, it'll look just the same as when we look up at our sun. Just like we have clouds, and a sky, they'll see the same. This 'sun' is said to be just like our sun, only much, much smaller of course, measuring at about several hundred kilometers in diameter according to some sub-theories

Shamballa, the Capital. A.k.a. Shangri-La

One idea of what exists inside the sun-like core, is that there is yet another habitable realm within it. This place, often regarded as a place of peace, tranquility, and infinite bliss, has been associated with many religions. Notably, Christianity. Centuries ago, the Christians believed Heaven to be located here. Whether it's Heaven or not, it has always been considered a place of paradise. Most commonly referred to as Shamballa, this place is considered by some to be the underworld's capital city. it has gone by many names including: Aryavartha, the Land of Wonders, the Land of Living Fire, The Land of White Waters, Shambalah, and even Shangri-La[3].

The Ancients, Gateways, Robots and the Afterlife

There are a few sub-theories that go along with Hollow Earth. So let's take a look at some of the most significant ideas in a historical manner.

Before 1692, dating back to ancient times[4], peoples of various parts of the world all had their own idea of what's inside the Earth. Not to any surprise, the interior was commonly associated with religion. The Greeks believed that Hades, a place all mortals go after death, may exist beneath the surface. Followers of Norse Mythology believed that Svartálfaheim, a place where craftsman dwarves reside, existed underground. The Jewish Sheol, a place where all souls go after death, has been said to be an "underworld". The Christians have often theorized that Hell, a place the non-Christians' souls eternally reside in after death, exists below ground.

It wasn't until 1692 that science began to recognize these ideas as more than myths and people started forming rational theories.

The first sub theory, proposed by Edmond Halley in 1692, said there were two layers under the ground we walk on, and then a central 'core'.(notice he doesn't say 'sun'.) Atmospheres separate these layers, and each layer has it's own poles, allowing them to rotate individually. Halley argued that this is to blame for faulty compass readings in our world. And later stated that the escaping gasses in lower layers caused our Aurora Borealis phenomena. As you can see, he had quite a bit of evidence to back his theory.

In the early 19th century, John Cleves Symmes, Jr. proposed the idea that there are actually 4 layers beneath our ground. He theorized that our ground is about 1300 kilometers thick. And there are access points, also referred to as 'gateways'[5], to the lower layers at our Earth's poles. He organized an expedition to go to the North Pole, but the newly elected US President Andrew Jackson refused to let it happen[6]. Symmes did not publish anything, so his work was carried on by relatives and followers who shared his beliefs.

Against the wishes of Pres. Jackson, a newspaper journalist by the name of Jeremiah N. Reynolds decided to carry out Symmes' work and went on a private expedition from New York City to Antarctica, only to be forced to return home, due to the dangerous terrain in that direction.

One man, by the name of Richard Shaver, claimed he was the guest of an ancient race known as the Elder Race, or the Titans. He said the Titans had come to our world from another solar system back in Earth's prehistoric era. When they realized the Earth's sun was causing them to age prematurely, they boroughed underground[7]. They dug diverse caverns that they would reside in for centuries to come. Eventually they decided to evacuate, and find another planet on which to live. Shaver layer said the Titans told him they left behind advance AI machines, or robots, presumably robots that would one day cause destruction of the world above ground[8].

The Universe in a Nutshell

Another theory that's more of a reverse Hollow Earth theory, states that the universe, with it's many galaxies, exists within one giant globe shaped "world". Unlike the similar hollow earth idea, there is no sure way to disprove this. Seeing that the 'edge' of the universe has yet to be discovered. [9]

Super Soldiers and the Nazi Party

The Hollow Earth theories had even gained the interest of infamous dictator Adolph Hitler, who found particular use of these theories. He had wanted to create an army of super soldiers, much like the ones that existed in Tibetan beliefs. Such soldiers that would allow Germany to enslave the world[10].

The Hollow Earth Research Society in Canada claims that, after the fall of the Third Reich, Hitler retreated to Antarctica and entered a hole in the surface. This hole is the same ‘entrance’ that many theorists believe leads to the underworld[11]. Evidence that supports the HERS' theory is the unexplained disappearances of over 2,000 scientists and over a million people after the events of WWII. They were all from Germany and Italy. According to this theory, Hitler is still there, rising up in power and creating his super army with the aliens that many people theorize exist below the surface. That's right, aliens, another sub-theory of Hollow Earth enthusiasts which states there are aliens below us, soon to come to the surface and either greet us, or kill us[12]. Some say that Hitler is now in charge of these aliens and will lead them the way he lead the Nazi party. Soon, according to this theory, Hitler will rise up and take control of the overworld.

The Underworld and Nuclear Destruction

There are many explorers who claim to have been inside the polar openings and had seen what lies beneath. In the 40’s, An American Navy crew member named Richard E. Byrd who flew over the South Pole, accounted seeing lush landscapes of dense vegetation, animals (both like we have here, and giant versions of our animals), and he even encountered great civilizations residing down there. Later on, he was approached by “flying machines” that inform him of how he discovered the entrance and no one else had. They told him he was a man of high moral value of whom they could trust. They warned him that the world, including their own portion, would soon face ultimate annihilation. They said ever since the events of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the underworld has feared for the existence of their home.

Some theorize that these beings below us, the ones with the supposed flying machines, are the same beings that have reportedly been seen flying over our world. This contradicts the idea that aliens are not of this Earth. Instead it implies that aliens aren't very alien to us at all[13].

Where World's Collide

Now let's talk about some of these entrances that exist away from the poles. From California to the mountains of Tibet and everywhere in between, there are allegedly dozens of holes (and "tunnels") that link the overworld to the underworld. There are reports of monks in the Himilayan Mountains of Tibet that guard the mountainside entrance. And some believe the tunnels beneath the Great Pyramid in Giza were constructed by the ancients, who were very aware of the underground civilizations[14].

Magic Holes[15], Conspiracies, and Unexplained Events

Another popular entrance in Washington state, US, supposedly located in the small town of Ellensburg[16], is believed to have magical powers. Originally this hole was used for dumping trash into illegally. But when people started to notice that this hole would never fill up even after all those years, suspicions rose. And when people would throw trash down the pit, there would be no noise indicating it hit the ground. Even when they disposed of large farming equipment, they would hear nothing. Mel Waters, the owner of the land where he claimed this hole was, reported strange phenomena regarding the hole. He said he witnessed a man who threw his recently deceased dog into the hole, only to find the dog alive and well hours later[17]. This made Waters curious. He began performing small experiments with the hole. He yelled down the empty hole, expecting to hear an echoe, but heard nothing. And he rolled down a stretch of twine to discover that the hole extended down at least 15 miles.

Mel had quite a few other stories, some relating to the now-called "Mel's Hole", and other stories not related at all:

-He claimed that uniformed people came to him, threatened him, and finally decided to lease his property and relocate him to Australia.

- he claimed that police arrested him in Tacoma, he blacked out, then he woke up later in San Fransisco with his teeth missing.

-he discovered a 1943 dime that somehow disappeared right before his eyes.[18]

- a black beam of "anti light" shot out of his pit.[19]

-he says he found yet another bottomless out in Nevada[20]. This hole, apparently, had a sheep lowered into it, only to have it pulled back up with an alien creature inside of it. This creature communicated through a radio boom box, warning of the destruction of mankind through nuclear wars.

That last one sounds familiar doesn't it? Remember the American navy member who was accepted into the underworld, then greeted by aliens? Those aliens warned of the same fate this alien warned of. Yet the sheep incident occurred over 50 years after the apparent polar entrance event.

Finally, Waters mentioned hearing voices that he believed to be coming from the hole. Yet he said no one else could hear them. So he concluded that the voices were only in his head. Yet he still insisted that the voices were talking to him. Just only to him.[21]

The credibility of Mel Waters is questionable, seeing how he had no proof of his discoveries. And he would never reveal the exact locations of these apparent "bottomless pits". Not to mention how he would know if his twine touched the pit's floor or not. Or where he would acquire 15 miles of twine in the first place.

The Hollow Moon

Moving on, in theory, the Earth is not the only place with a Hollow 'Earth'. Theorists believe that the moon also has an empty interior, inhabiting beings just like the Earth inhabits. A Hollow Moon so to speak. Another belief is the moon houses yet another pyramid similar to Giza's, that acts as another entrance to an underworld[22]. Some theorists go as far as saying that all bodies of the universe are hollow. Including planets, moons, and stars. Some even believe that all these entrances have magical portals that connect and lead to one underworld, as opposed to many separate underworlds in each body of space[23].

A Newfound Conspiracy Theory

Later on, with the introduction of new technology and scientific breakthroughs, this whole theory of Hollow Earth was disproven. Or so we've been told. Today, the notion is a conspiracy theory, attracting the attention of conspiracy theorists, poets, artists, directors and perhaps even video game developers.

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Reference numbers...

1. Pretty generic definition right? But it's odd that this theory is one of the only places you will hear the term Denizen being used.

2. The Agartha in zombies is very likely to be an actual underground place, as opposed to some mythical realm that Richtofen figured it to be.

3. Well this could only mean that the map Shangri-La exists in Agartha's capital city, which is believed to be in the core of the Earth. According to some theories, the core is the central sun of the underworld. Other theories suggest that the core is actually a sun. If you remember from the Easter egg on Shangri-La, the two men who became trapped in the time loop experienced faults with their navigational equipment. This map existing at the center of the Earth would explain the malfunctions.

4. This explains why we here so much about the ancients while playing Origins. The ancients clearly know more than the modern man does.

5. Another rather obvious reference to zombies here. The gateways to the underworld(Agartha) were often thought to be in the form of tunnels. These tunnels were believed to be created by the ancients. Just like the ones we see in Origins.

6. Sure sounds like a government cover-up to me. Samuel knows his stuff.

7. This reminded me of Buried. Although I'm not too sure how it would tie in. If anyone has any ideas, that'd be great.

8. Sounds a lot like the giant robots on Origins.

9. That's a pretty interesting way to think about the zombies universe. Not sure if it applies to it or not. Just a thought to consider.

10. Yes, yes I did just quote Takeo. Anyways, this talk of the super soldiers Hitler wanted reminds me of the super soldiers that Group 935 had envisioned. The only difference, of course, was the ones Hitler wanted were a little more...alive...or were they?

11. About these holes I've been talking about, I believe that the Rift in Buried is one of them. Obviously not the one in the South Pole, but definitely one of them. While playing Buried, all the characters seem to have their bit to say about the Rift. Including Maxis, who says something about having control over the Rift and then the power of the æther, giving him access to Agartha. So it is clear that the Rift is one of the gateways to Agartha. Which I'm pretty sure this has already been established.

12. Samuel has made many quotes about aliens. He seems to know so much. Exactly how long has he been hearing voices?

13. Speaking of these 'aliens'. Has anyone looked at the circles in the corn fields in Tranzit? Well they could possibly be crop circles, created by these aliens.

14. Once again, more about the Rift perhaps? Yes, I would say so. However I'd like to take particular interest to the Great Pyramid bit. Pyramids are commonly talked about in zombies. The pyramid shaped M.P.D. on Moon. The pyramid where the Pack a Punch machine is on Shangri-La. And also take a look at the loading screen in Shangri-La. There are three or four crumbling pyramids lined up beside each other.

15. Gigitty

16. Take a look at the Black Ops 2 world map for zombies. Now look at the location of Green Run(Tranzit). It clearly takes place in the exact location that Ellensburg, WA is located.

17. It's a hellhound! Or maybe not. However, this dog was dead, and now it's alive. It was raised from the dead like a zombie.

18. Hm. 1943. Lots of significant events in both nazi zombies and in real world history during that year. Perhaps the coin traveled through time and presented itself to him. Then, due to the butterfly effect, slowly vanished before his eyes. Some things to think about here.

19. There are those beams of light in Tranzit, though they aren't black. But maybe they're supposed to be. This would support my theory that Tower of Babble is not the Easter egg in Tranzit, but merely the wrong path. But let's not get off track here.

20. Nuketown zombies. There is that giant hole there. Which, I hate to break it to you, is not caused by one of the rockets from Moon. This can be concluded from playing Moon. We saw that none of the rockets hit the same place. All went to different parts of the world. At the end of Nuketown Zombies, we see what is most likely the rocket that is from Moon. And if that's the rocket from Moon, then one could conclude that the other crater had nothing to do with the events of Moon. I just wanted to make that clear. However the bottom of that crater is visible, so it would unlikely be a gateway.

21. Richtofen heard voices when near the M.P.D. The M.P.D is a location of an Agarthan entrance, just like Mel's Hole. So it would make sense that both Richtofen and Mel would hear voices, considering their close proximity of the gateways. Did Mel hear Richtofen's voice just as Samuel does?

22. The M.P.D on Moon is a pyramid of sorts. And that has been accepted as a gateway.

23. Think about those tunnels leading down to get to the Crazy Place on Origins. Four tunnels, all in different areas, all somehow connecting to the same place. A place that houses a gateway to Agartha. This is the only part of my article that suggests something that science, theoretically, cannot explain. Portals that lead to another realm. And all you have to do is jump inside, and it takes you there.

------End of Reference Numbers-----

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"I wonder if I should trust this super-gun technology. Everyone knows it came from the Hollow Earth."

Works Cited

http://humansarefree.com/2011/05/hollow-earth-agartha-complete.html

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Hollow_Earth

http://www.crystalinks.com/hollowearth.html

http://www.tokenrock.com/explain-agartha-195.html

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/tierra_hueca/tierrahueca/Chapter1.htm

http://images.wikia.com/callofduty/images/archive/2/24/20120121204921!Shangri-La_Loading_Screen.png

***If you would like to learn more about Mel's Hole, take a look at @Jolteon's extensively accurate and educational thread here...

http://www.callofdutyzombies.com/forum/index.php/topic/145715-mels-hole-mel-waters-and-the-gate-to-hell/

A note from the poster

I hope you all enjoyed this rather long and educational post. I would like to give credit to the following members for their contribution to this post. Although they did not help construct my article, they did inspire it in some ways. And they also had already made some relations between The Hollow Earth Theory and Zombies known in their own posts here on CoDZ...so thank you to the following, and everybody else who made similar posts!

@Jolteon

@GRILL

@InfestLithium

@Kreative Killah

@deathb4di2h0nor

@AlphaSnake

@ZombicidalManiac

@Tac

@(everybody else who posted similar findings)

Thank you all for reading, and enjoy the goosebumps! Happy Slaying!

[MegaAfroMan]

Excellently formatted post, lots of nice information.

I highly appreciate the Works Cited.

Another interesting subject closely related to Zombies is that of Vril Energy and the Vril-ya, if you hadn't heard of it.

But anyways well done!

Oh, I'm pursuing a degree in Astronomy-Physics. I'm still pretty early on yet, but I'd like to raise a point about 'the whole universe in a shell' being disprovable.

First, wouldn't the constant and measurable expansion of the universe be a pretty good indicator that there is no solid shell around it, because to increase the surface area of the shell along with the increase in radius as the universe expands new matter would have to be pull from no where, which violates one of the more stable laws, conservation of matter.

Second, just because something is not disprovable, doesn't mean anything. It's a common logic fallacy to say that something gains any credit at all because it hasn't been proven wrong. Ad Ignoratiam. I have an ethereal unicorn named Steve who happens to be omnipotent and fulfils my wishes.

You can't disprove it, but you'd be stupid to try to stay on my goodside because you fear my wrath conducted through Steve.

But anywho, great post. Treyarch knows how to weave thought provoking material into their zombies mode, that is for certain.

[thegoldenspork115]

Excellently formatted post, lots of nice information.

I highly appreciate the Works Cited.

Another interesting subject closely related to Zombies is that of Vril Energy and the Vril-ya, if you hadn't heard of it.

But anyways well done!

Oh, I'm pursuing a degree in Astronomy-Physics. I'm still pretty early on yet, but I'd like to raise a point about 'the whole universe in a shell' being disprovable.

First, wouldn't the constant and measurable expansion of the universe be a pretty good indicator that there is no solid shell around it, because to increase the surface area of the shell along with the increase in radius as the universe expands new matter would have to be pull from no where, which violates one of the more stable laws, conservation of matter.

Second, just because something is not disprovable, doesn't mean anything. It's a common logic fallacy to say that something gains any credit at all because it hasn't been proven wrong. Ad Ignoratiam. I have an ethereal unicorn named Steve who happens to be omnipotent and fulfils my wishes.

You can't disprove it, but you'd be stupid to try to stay on my goodside because you fear my wrath conducted through Steve.

But anywho, great post. Treyarch knows how to weave thought provoking material into their zombies mode, that is for certain.

Thanks for reading. And yeah, I realize that just because something hasn't been disproved, doesn't mean it's fact. However, when you relate this theory to the Hollow Earth theory, you'd see my point. The Hollow Earth theory is said to have already been disproved(even though it most definitely has not been) Meanwhile this shelled universe theory has never been considered right or wrong.

And I'm not majoring in Astrophysics or anything, but i don't think it's fair to say the universe is constantly expanding. Maybe it is, maybe it's not. But for all we know, it's imploding as we speak. But that's probably just me speaking out of ignorance. Like I said, I don't know.

[MegaAfroMan]

The universe is expanding. This is pretty well within our grasp. Not only is it expanding, but the rate of expansion is increasing rather than slowing down.

This is easily within our grasp due to the Doppler Effect. You hear it with cars all the time, as they approach you at high speeds the sound gets higher pitched, then when they pass and start getting further away the sound gets lower pitched.

This is because as it approaches you, the soundwaves kind of get crunched together, causing what appears to be a shorter wavelength.

The same thing happns with light. If something is moving away from us at high (really high) speeds, the lightwaves appear stretched out, or red shifted. The light we observe of other galaxies is slightlier more red than it should be. We know what it should be because of spectral emmision and absorbtion lines. Basically every element in the Universe has a unique fingerprint in lightwaves that it makes when light is passed through it.

The universe is expanding to the best of our knowledge.

Also, hollow earth hasn't been disproven? Excuse me? Do you know nothing of how the theory of plate tectonics works? How about how basic physics works? How about the observations of vibrations through the Earth during earthquakes?

Plate Tectonics alone should suffice in saying there is no Hollow Earth, but I'll leave that one for now because that last point I made will be easier to describe and does a perfectly fine job in explaining why Hollow Earth cannot exist.

Okay, so when an earthquake happens, it is felt all over the world. It is almost never purely secluded to one area, it's just that with distance it gets weaker, and with extreme distance, people don't feel it, but it still can register on instruments in laboratories (which are in universities, weather stations, geological survey centers, and private laboratories) pretty much anywhere on Earth.

So we have a pretty good understanding of how waves work, and we know the speed at which vibration waves can move through a medium.

If there were hollow layers filled with gas, or one giant hollow pocket, it would cause an observable distortion between the time it takes for a certain location to record a tremor from across the world, and the mathematically expected time that that tremor should have been felt.

Vibrations move through air much much differently than through rock, molten rock, and etc.

[thegoldenspork115]

Some people have a little too much faith in their toys.

No offense, but saying seismic waves has debunked the Hollow Earth Theory, is like pressing your ear to a cement wall, listening to two guys speaking a foreign language on the other side, and claiming you know what they're talking about. My point being: you really can't prove anything without something concrete. Simple readings of what MIGHT be going on below can't be used as proof. Only supporting evidence.

If I remember anything from Physics, it's that waves change direction as they pass through objects of different densities. Most 'modern' hollow earth theories don't believe in the inner layers being hollow spheres that rotate unattached to each other. Instead, some believe the 'layers' are attached. Which would mean seismic waves could indeed pass through without coming into contact with 'air'. That being said, who knows what's going on down there. Is there a diverse system of caverns or are there giant 'pockets of air'?

Seismic activity can only be used to promote the theory that the Earth is solid. As far as actual evidence goes, the world has yet to see.

Edited July 14, 2014 by thegoldenspork115

[MegaAfroMan]

I'm sorry but you are wrong.

I liked your post it was great. Don't get me wrong. But what you're stating now is factually inaccurate.

I'm now going to address everything that is wrong with your statement one by one.

First: Your use of 'toys' is an unsupported attack on how science works. It's an untruth, a way to try and make your point seem better when you have nothing useful to actually do so. No offense.

Second: Your analogy is terrible. How is saying that because there are no consistent or even occasional discrepancies in observation versus mathematics, anything like understanding foreign languages through a cement wall? Again an attempt to make my argument seem poor, when you actually haven't added anything whatsoever to the discussion.

Third: I'm telling you, there IS something concrete. You just refuse to accept it as concrete. I don't know why.

Directly digging down into the Earth and poking around is NOT the only way to gain concrete evidence on what exists down there. Science doesn't do absolute truths, it supports theories. My theory has a lot more support than yours, and absolutely no accepted disproof.

Where is your evidence other than "well it hasn't been disproven." besides the fact that of course it is completely logically inconsistent with almost all facets of modern science (save anything in the biological realm as far as I am aware).

Fourth: Yes things change direction, they also change speed. In a mathematically consistent and predicatable way. Are you trying to suggest that there are air pockets in the Earth that are large enough to hold civilizations, but small enough to be undetected on modern siesmological equipment? Honestly? Do you know how desperate that grasp is? Waves also bounce around. They don't just pass through the Earth once and stop. They keep bouncing around until they dissipate. With any significant earthquake that vibration wave will bounce around through the majority of the Earth afterwards, often making multiple passes if my understanding of the situation is correct (being waves and closely related, but not directly, to what I'm studying in my field, i'm pretty sure at least my understanding of it is comparable to your own without knowing your background).

Finally, as I said there are multiple reasons a hollow Earth in any substantial for cannot work. A small pocket underground, or a sprawling structure maybe, but multiple vast pockets, or seperate shells is impossible.

Plate Tectonics, modern siesmology, modern cosmology, Newtonian mechanics, and Geology all are filled with multiple different accepted theories which would completely make the idea of a hollow Earth impossible.

Science operates on whether something can be proven, and THEN not disproven. Not the otherway around.

If something cannot be proven, then it doesn't matter if it cannot be disproven, it still will not be an accepted theory.

[thegoldenspork115]

I appreciate your argument. And you clearly have more of an extensive background in sciences than I do. I just find the use of equipment, no matter how advanced, to be subject to questioning. I mean which came first: the solution to 2+2, or the calculator? If the calculator came first, the expression would be meaningless. Sorry for using another analogy. But I just mean that this equipment cannot possibly be considered a credible use of reference. At least not to the point where you can be certain of anything.

And you're right, I'm not exactly providing much support to the Hollow Earth theory. That's not the point. The point is what you said yourself: "Science operates on whether something can be proven, and then not disproven". Science cannot prove that the Earth is solid any more than it could prove the Earth is hollow. It can, however, provide quite a bit of support for the Earth being solid. And I realize the Hollow Earth Theory is most likely inaccurate. There's lots of evidence against it. And in many ways, makes little to no sense. But as long as there is a little room for it to be accurate, which there is(a very little), then it cannot simply be ignored as being impossible.

But the point is, nothing has been proven right or proven wrong. That's what separates science from religion. Factual evidence. Not strongly supported theories.

Edited July 15, 2014 by thegoldenspork115

[MegaAfroMan]

I appreciate what you're saying, but I'm telling you there is no observation without instruments. Period.

You have to accept some instruments. Our eyes, and ears are ones that we have never gone without using, and they are probably hundreds of times more faulty than any geological monitoring equipment.

That is where your error is. The success of the equipment has been demonstrated and verified. You don't think scientists just build something and say "well, it looks right..." do you? There is ages of extensive testing and verification using controlled scenarios and mathematics.

Then you have to be willing to accept one of the basic principles of science and cosmology, the Cosmologocial Principle, essentially saying, we hold that what proves to be true under specific conditions here, will also be be true under specific conditions anywhere, and at any time in the past or future as long as the conditions continue to hold.

Basically saying that if accept that water freezes into ice when it is in a temperature of 0C, under normal atmoshperic pressure, without addition chemical compounds in proximity here in my bathroom, then I can assume that even on another planet a million years from now water will still freeze into ice at 0C at normal Earth atmospheric pressure with no reactive chemical compounds present.

Without that principle, science is pointless because the rules can change at any point in any place. With such chaos, the world as we know it couldn't exist. Our universe has the right balance of chaos and order, simply because it has to, or else it wouldn't be a universe.

So with that in mind scientists test and design, and improve devices with which to measure varying things.

Also as a final word:

Science actually never proves anything by the way you are making proof sound.

Science IS just strongly supported theories that haven't been disproven.

We never can say we have the final answer, because there is always the possibility for us to learn something new that changes the way we look at the world.

This doesn't mean science is unreliable, because it rarely, if ever, takes a backwards step. It only changes to become more accurate.

Einstine's Theory of Relativity technically meant that Newton's Theory of Gravity was wrong. Yet, it wasn't. For what Newton's theory of Gravity describes, it's pretty spot on. It is correct enough for us to build space shuttles, and skyscrapers, and fly to the edge of the solar system with.

Science is always changing or has the potential for change, but only for improvement.

Religion deals with absolute truth and answers, with little evidential or logical support.

Science deals with strongly supported theories, and little to no absolute truths.

[thegoldenspork115]

Hm. Well I'm starting to understand you a bit more now. I guess I've always had something of a false view of science. Maybe. I mean you you brought up some really interesting things about our "chaotic" universe.

A couple questions for you though.

If science is all based on strongly supported theories, then why is evolution still only accepted as a "theory". Instead of something "proven"? I mean there's certainly a lot of evidence supporting it.

And

If science really is based on strongly supported theories, then the Earth could still possibly be hollow. After all, the hollow earth is a theory too. It may not have as much 'credible' evidence as the earth being solid theory does. But according to what you said, they're both theories. One strongly supported and one not. You implied earlier that the Hollow Earth Theory has indeed been disproven. Yet you admit that the Earth being solid is a theory. I may be misunderstanding something you said, but it's almost like you're contradicting yourself.

[MegaAfroMan]

Theory in science means something quite different from the normal everyday use of the word.

The normal layman use of theory equates it to a guess or hunch, whereas a scientific theory is the highest status something can achieve in science. Nothing is ever proven absolute, because we have to accept our limitations, however science only operates on the strongest possible theories that are present. If a theory comes along which is better than the theory of evolution for how evolution works, then it will be adopted into our scientific understanding of the universe and the old theory will essentially be thrown out if it is no longer applicable.

A theory in science to be a theory has to be repeatedly verified through observation, supported by as much as possible, not contradict other well held theories, and there has to be potential for it to be proven wrong. There must exist some hypothetical result which could prove it wrong.

Some people become confused with the difference between law and theory, and to be honest there really isn't a large one. One doesn't surpass the other in importance, in general laws are observations, usually mathematical in nature about something that occurs. Whereas a theory is an explanation of why or how that law works the way it does.

The law of gravity is the observation of the rate at which things clump together, the theory of gravity tries to explain that mass attracts other mass and that is why it works at that specific rate.

In all honesty, if a theory has been disproven, it really shouldn't be called "theory" but because of how people think of the definition for the word, and because of how people get attached to using theory as part of the name of the idea, it still does.

[thegoldenspork115]

I've never heard of anyone using the word "theory" like the words "guess" or "hunch". What you call the scientific version of the word is the only one I've ever known of.

But either way, you keep saying it yourself: our chaotic universe and our human limitations keep us from determining absolutes. Therefore, unlike what you implied earlier, the Hollow Earth Theory has not been disproven.

[MegaAfroMan]

It has been disproven in all ways that matter.

When it comes to science, you either have to decide to follow logic, observation, mathematics, and the cosmological principle, or you can just say you'll never know anything.

Science has reasons for what it supports. Great reasons. The best reasons we can have.

But in the end, you have to decide that in your efforts to figure the truth, that you're willing to trust in those four key principles as something orth following.

Either you can accept that in all ways that matter, the Hollow Earth Hypthothesis (a little more 'correct'...) has been disproven, OR you can decide that we will never know anything, but then honestly it isn't worth talking, and you might as well end your side of the conversation.

Yes, nothing is ever an absolute truth, No that does not mean that nothing is ever disproven or proven in a way that matters.

Side note: I don't think I said chaotic universe, but I might have and I haven't gone back to check so if I did, I need to clarify that chaotic is and is not accurate. There is chaos on the small scale, but overall there is order, but then it can be argued that that order arose from chaotic processes, and so on and so forth.

I'm not a quantum physicist. My particular intended graduate focus is floating more around planetary physics, so I won't pretend to be an expert in something I'm not. I am still probably quite qualified to talk basically about it, but I need to make my limitations clear, so as to not mislead.

Anywho, yes. Either science should be accepted and we build our world off the basic assumption that accepted theories and laws are the equivalent of fact, or science is not accepted and we never can claim to know anything and should probably stop trying because there will always be 'limits'.

Edited July 25, 2014 by MegaAfroMan

[way2g00d]

+1 for adding an external Google link. This is a life saver for me.

[thegoldenspork115]

Accepting theories as fact seems a bit naïve, considering there are other theories out there.

[MegaZron]

thegoldenspork115  

 

I've read your whole debate with "afroman" and it has been interesting indeed, I personally stick to afromans point on a solid earth, but I do understand why a hallow earth could be possible, I've actually done some reaserch not so long ago, I know a whole deal about it, it lead me to some other things which made me more and more doubtfull because the theory of agartha is so much more than a hallow earth...

 

moving on to some of my own theories about zombies....

 

in origins the crazy place is actually in agartha, the gate way is the teleporter. + the zombies there are called argartian zombies... maby this is pure evidance afterall....

 

 

now on to the 3 pyramids...

 

 all the three pyramids are from shangri-la

 

one of the pyramids (the first or second) landed on moon that pyramaid held the mpd which made it possible for samantha to enter the eather

 

the other pyramid landed probobly on excavation site 64 or some where in the  origins map, and this pyramid would according to my theory hold the mpd in which samantha entered agartha.

 

so what I am saying is that each pyramid hold an mpd that can be eneterd and gain different controll in.

 

pyramid 1= eather

pyramid 2=agartha

pyramid 3 =???

 

the third on stayed at shangri-la 

 

 

 

asdasdasdnknas

asdaa

[Guest]

thegoldenspork115  

 

I've read your whole debate with "afroman" and it has been interesting indeed, I personally stick to afromans point on a solid earth, but I do understand why a hallow earth could be possible, I've actually done some reaserch not so long ago, I know a whole deal about it, it lead me to some other things which made me more and more doubtfull because the theory of agartha is so much more than a hallow earth...

 

moving on to some of my own theories about zombies....

 

in origins the crazy place is actually in agartha, the gate way is the teleporter. + the zombies there are called argartian zombies... maby this is pure evidance afterall....

 

 

now on to the 3 pyramids...

 

 all the three pyramids are from shangri-la

 

one of the pyramids (the first or second) landed on moon that pyramaid held the mpd which made it possible for samantha to enter the eather

 

the other pyramid landed probobly on excavation site 64 or some where in the  origins map, and this pyramid would according to my theory hold the mpd in which samantha entered agartha.

 

so what I am saying is that each pyramid hold an mpd that can be eneterd and gain different controll in.

 

pyramid 1= eather

pyramid 2=agartha

pyramid 3 =???

 

the third on stayed at shangri-la 

 

 

 

asdasdasdnknas

asdaa

 

 

In Origins they say that the Crazy Place is just the gate way to Agartha, like an entrance. Also @thegoldenspork115 whose to say that the Hollow Earth cannot be in another dimension like the Aether and underground at the same time?

[thegoldenspork115]

@Nightmare Voyager

Interesting, please explain.

...derp first post on CoDZ in months [emoji52]

[Guest]

Its pretty difficult to explain. Things can exist in a different plain of reality but have a locations. Its like in the Agartha dimension, Agartha is located where the centre of the earth is. It can be accessed from our world into that one. Really hard to explain though as its more of an understanding than an idea.