Origins- Not seperate

[Guest]

I was reading the WaW character bios for Nikolai, Takeo, Richtofen and Dempsey and found something interesting. People may think Origins is in a separate universe (mostly because they didn't like the ending) but I think this may put a stop to that. I will first show all the character bios in the order their names are listed above and then the letters from the field in the same order.

 

"Stalin himself cannot stare Nikolai in the eye, no one can. There, in his eyes, you will see the soul of a man burning with the hatred of all things living. His closet is full of skeletons, many of them with the flesh still attached.

 

Early in his career, Nikolai had quickly made his way up through the party ranks by killing the next man in line, and by marrying politically. Ultimately, his aspirations all came crashing down after his fifth wife mysteriously died while cleaning his axe with her neck. Little did he know that she had been sleeping with a high ranking party official on the side. This made Nikolai infamous, and his reputation spread quickly through the party. It was not long before Stalin himself had heard about Nikolai. More importantly, he feared Nikolai. As soon as the war started, our hero was dropped on the front lines and forgotten about, where he wallowed in self pity and vodka for several years.

 

There are many weapons in his arsenal, not least of which is his breath."

 

— Nikolai's biography added with Map Pack 2 in Call of Duty: World at War.

 

This underlined part interests me as it would be assumed to be the second world war. But look at what the letters from the field say:

 

"December 10th - 1917

It appears my current exile from the motherland may prove fortuitous. I have received orders to undertake a vital mission in Northern France.

Reports from the area suggest the Kaiser's War Machine may be gearing up to unleash something unlike anything we have seen before..."

— Nikolai Belinski

 

Before Origins he had also been exiled. Showing the WaW bio describes him before Origins. What does this mean? Well for one it may be a key point showing where Origins is in our story and the other shows that Nikolai after Origins must have wallowed in self pity drinking and getting attached to Vodka. This is where Richtofen comes in and experiments on an old friend, wiping his memory and making him very different to the Nikolai we knew in Origins. That or the younger Richtofen experimented on him and left him with no memory in self pity then found him to survive the undead.

 

 

Now I am going to analyse Takeo's WaW bio:

 

"Enter Takeo, for whom life has no meaning if not to perfect your discipline and to reveal true character and honor. Perhaps he ponders this and other philosophical questions as his Katana slices through the flesh and sinew of his enemy.

Our hero was born into wealth; his family dynasty dates back several centuries, and throughout that time they have been highly decorated Samurai and Bushido. Well Takeo is no exception to this celebrated bloodline. Even when the family first saw the young, life-filled 5 year old Takeo playing in the street with his Katana and slicing the tails off terrified kittens, it was obvious he was destined to bring honor to the Masaki name.

 

Reserved and reflective, the war is a perfect opportunity for Takeo to explore his blood lust and study the nature of those less honorable than himself, so if you fall victim to his swift action and might know that you have helped a man better than you reach enlightenment."

 

— Takeo's bio added with Map Pack 2 in Call of Duty: World at War.

 

This line interests me very much as yet again does not mention it being the second war and talks about Takeo's blood lust. Now looking at his letters from the field it does not mention much, only that his is an agent of the Emperors and it talks about his Samurai traditions but the most important thing I saw was in our introduction cutscene from Origins.

 

 

We see Takeo slicing through Zombies and beheading them as if he has had some experience. This may show his blood lust being fulfilled but what interests me is in later maps like Kino der Toten, how long has it been since his blade has been used? Do we even know if it is broken or not and he pretends it is still present?

 

Now it is time to analyse Richtofens WaW bio:

 

"Beware The Doc". A message that was scrawled across walls of every town under Axis control. Starvation may cripple you, dysentery may wreck you, and gunfire may rip the flesh from your bones, but "Beware The Doc".

This is Dr. Richtofen, known affectionately as "The Butcher" to his victims as they scream in agony moments before he snuffs out their light. All through his career, Richtofen has been at the forefront of torture and information extraction research. Richtofen is an incurable sociopath and sees no moral distinction between natural death and murder; the victim is the victim, regardless of how their demise manifests itself.

 

Doctor Richtofen has a collection of stuffed animals, most of them posed in positions of terror at the instant of their death."

 

— Richtofen's bio added with Map Pack 2 in World at War.

 

This last quote is very interesting for me. Richtofen created the Monkey Bomb which is a known fact because of the vbush data servants which will be shown underneath. But since the Monkey Bomb appears in Origins, I think it was created before Origins showing Richtofen was already part insane, especially from some of his quotes:

 

***SERVANT ENTRY B70326***

 

“Ludwig Maxis. Personal File.

 

Edward has grown impatient. He insists on accelerating our projects. Regardless of the fact that the 115 is limited. He grows angry. Short. It was a mistake to invite him. He cannot be trusted. He watches me. He watches Samantha. He watches Sophia and his latest creation, the monkey. It screams when set aflame. Then again, perhaps it is the 115 affecting my mind. I can no longer discern.

 

***END FILE***

 

For one it mentions the 115 affecting Maxis mind, maybe that was his perception before he realized it was Samantha in his mind. Then my question would be why does Samantha suddenly become non existent, unless there is something happening with all characters memories that makes it so Maxis didn't remember Samantha. Maybe Richtofen did and that's why he doesn't really wan't to help her.

 

I don't really know what the Monkey Bomb is but I think it is a monkey that has been essentially stuffed, I am not sure if someone can clear that up for me that would be great

 

 

Now finally I will look over Dempsey's WaW bio:

 

"Tank Dempsey: American hero. Hand him a loaded weapon, a good woman, and something to shoot at and he is happy. Enrage him and he will rip your guts out and use them as a bandolier.

 

Dempsey was selected for this mission after he showed his true grit at the battle for Peleliu. Remarkable though it may seem, his unit was captured during the early raids before the main invasion, and he spent 2 weeks in a rat infested bamboo cage submerged in malarial water. Well that did not stop The Tank. After he gnawed his way through the cage, he then gnawed his way through his captors armed only with a Bobby pin and his Medal of Honor which he keeps secreted in various body cavities.

 

Now you know there is no before the war for Dempsey, and there is no after. There is only the legend of Tank Dempsey, and how he will win the war for the rest of us."

 

— Tank's biography added with Map Pack 2 in Call of Duty: World at War.

 

Now I do believe most of this is aimed at Tanks time in WW2 as it mentions the battle for Peleliu but maybe some of it links back to Origins. It says there is no before the war or after for him. Does this mean WW1 or WW2? It could just mean WW2 but what if by there is no after it meant he doesn't have an after? I know that is not linked to this ideal of Origins being in our story, or does it? Our story goes in a loop. Full circle and for Tank there is no before and after as it just keeps going like our story.

 

Well that has been my theory on Origins being in the timeline with maps from Nacht der Untoten to Moon. If you have found anything please comment it or even to point something out I am always open for suggestions. I believe Origins was planned as the beginning since we first saw the characters in Shino Numa. I mean we did play a map named The Giant (Der Riese) and then in Kino saw Sams room where she had been playing with our 4 heroes and Giant Teddy Bear. Also before I end the post, do not worry about the characters age. They have been hopping all over time, do we really know how old they are at this point?

 

[Stop Mocking Me0]

This in no way proves the confirmed cannon of origins to the main storyline, what you have brought to our attention is the events BEFORE origins were cannon. 

 

Alternate realities generally focus on one thing. Ever see back to the future? Remember old biff giving young biff the almanac? It drastically changed the future due to one small change in the past. 

 

In the normal reality the O4 were sent to the camp but did not discover richtofen, this is due to the fact that maxis never grew ill, because the ancient zombies weren't provoked by his findings, because in the normal reality samantha was not born or in argartha yet to influence maxis. 

 

After the events of moon, or some other map, samantha somehow branched out into an alternate world, where she took to influencing her father, which led to his illness, which led to richtofen performing emergency surgery, which led to his capture. HOWEVER we know this can not be true because without richtofen the MTD would have never been build, the MPD would have never been found and samantha never came into power. This causes a paradox. This paradox is resolved by maxis and the O4 entering argartha. How it is resolved I do not know, my best hunch is that the universe with samantha in control fell apart, or perhaps became our reality where zombies don't exist and the world wasn't destroyed. 

 

This could explain the cutscene at the end as well, samantha and richtofen were reincarnated as children, with maxis as their father. Takeo, tank, and nikolai got their "reward" by joining a universe that never fell to the zombie plague. Richtofen never went mad from MPD exposure. And maxis regained a body.

 

Truly the end to the story yeah?

 

WRONG! My hunch is that the "plan" samantha mentions at the end is samantha and maxis's way of saying "We need to return to our original time line". In which case the O4, samantha, and maxis will escape back into the world preceding the events of buried.  

 

 

 

Or at least that's what I'm getting from it. 

[Guest]

This in no way proves the confirmed cannon of origins to the main storyline, what you have brought to our attention is the events BEFORE origins were cannon. 

 

Alternate realities generally focus on one thing. Ever see back to the future? Remember old biff giving young biff the almanac? It drastically changed the future due to one small change in the past. 

 

In the normal reality the O4 were sent to the camp but did not discover richtofen, this is due to the fact that maxis never grew ill, because the ancient zombies weren't provoked by his findings, because in the normal reality samantha was not born or in argartha yet to influence maxis. 

 

After the events of moon, or some other map, samantha somehow branched out into an alternate world, where she took to influencing her father, which led to his illness, which led to richtofen performing emergency surgery, which led to his capture. HOWEVER we know this can not be true because without richtofen the MTD would have never been build, the MPD would have never been found and samantha never came into power. This causes a paradox. This paradox is resolved by maxis and the O4 entering argartha. How it is resolved I do not know, my best hunch is that the universe with samantha in control fell apart, or perhaps became our reality where zombies don't exist and the world wasn't destroyed. 

 

This could explain the cutscene at the end as well, samantha and richtofen were reincarnated as children, with maxis as their father. Takeo, tank, and nikolai got their "reward" by joining a universe that never fell to the zombie plague. Richtofen never went mad from MPD exposure. And maxis regained a body.

 

Truly the end to the story yeah?

 

WRONG! My hunch is that the "plan" samantha mentions at the end is samantha and maxis's way of saying "We need to return to our original time line". In which case the O4, samantha, and maxis will escape back into the world preceding the events of buried.  

 

 

 

Or at least that's what I'm getting from it. 

 

 

You say I am wrong this is even more of a convoluted theory itself

[Stop Mocking Me0]

The difference is I'm not trying to prove anything, other then the point that what you have stated is not pure fact. 

[DeathBringerZen]

I agree with this. I do not necessarily believe Origins is supposed to be set in some, "alternate" timeline. The whole basis of the map being set in an aternative reality came from that one description of the map that was put there by some site admin guy, not necessarily a dev.

 

"Origins is exactly what it say's on the tin. We are going back to the moment when our heroes met for the first time! Nikolai, Dempsey, Takeo, and of course, Richtofen, and this is not for the faint hearted. These characters are meeting surrounded by the horrors of war. We have a larger scale than we have ever done before, further enhanced by dynamic weather, from rain, fog rolling in, snow falling. In true zombies style, our WW1 has a dramatic twist... diesel punk! The map feature 2 new era specifc weapons... the MG08 machine gun... WOW! and a new starting pistol for the first time which is the Mauser, and both have been give the diesel punk asthetic. We've introduced the zombie tank. This is a defendable platform that can move around the map that you can use to fight off the zombie horde and also possibly discover a few Easter eggs along the way. Oh by the way... did I mention the giant robots? We have 1000ft mechanical giants striding across the landscape. That gives a verticality and scale that we've never seen before in zombies. It also provides hazards, or oportunities for the skilled player. This zombie map really has to be seen to be believed"

 

Nowhere in Jason Blundell's breakdown does it mention alternate realities or timelines. Only that one line from the map description on the CoD site and then David Vonderhaar's tweet about it being one of many possibilities, which I must add only got posted after everyone complained about the trailer and how it was completely contridictary towards the current storyline and timeline.

 

My guess is that it was not supposed to be an alternate timeline originally, but seeing the communities reaction to the map they will no doubt make it non-canon when the next game comes out.

[Stop Mocking Me0]

It already is...

[DeathBringerZen]

It already is...

And do you have solid evidence to back you up on that one?

Not saying it isn't, just saying my assumption is that it was not supposed to be originally, but it will be come the next game.

[Stop Mocking Me0]

Most of the people on this site back up the idea of origins being in an alternate reality, otherwise most of the story falls apart. 

[DeathBringerZen]

Most of the people on this site back up the idea of origins being in an alternate reality, otherwise most of the story falls apart.

I understand and accept that answer, but that can also be viewed as a cheap way of taking the heat away from the devs for spectaculary screwing up the storyline.

The first few sentences of Jasons breakdown though suggest otherwise, and without solid proof I refuse to give the devs credit where it is not due. I genuinely believe they just fecked it up and it's on our shoulders to fix it up for them by finding a way to tie it in somehow.

Not saying I am right and everyone else is wrong. Far from it, but I just feel they have too many times in past contradicted themselves with the storyline that there is no reason not to think this again.

If it does turn out to be non-canon then what was the point on the maps storyline, or even ending for that matter?

[MegaAfroMan]

I believe it is alternate (all sorts of timey-wimey nonsense) but still cannon. Alternatie lines do not effect each other.

Although I could see it all being a loop as is proposed here.

Mocking, you said it yourself, you're not trying to prove anything or even provide strong supporting evidence, so please desist and come back when you are willing to put in the effort.

No sense in sitting in here and just denying what other people are saying then posing your own ridiculous ideas and saying 'but I'm not trying to prove anything.'

[Stop Mocking Me0]

I'm offering other solutions. Just as feeble as everyone else's. 

 

We've been discussing this sense the week after origins was released half a year ago. 

 

The map can exist as an alternate universe, yet cannon, or it can't exist cannon at all. The fact's don't add up. MANY people have brought this to everyone's attention. 

 

And remember  the so called "campaign" team made this map. It's possible it's messed things up trayarch wouldn't have approved of. 

 

And until someone brings forth any rock hard evidence that this IS the same universe or an alternate one, everyone's talk is going to be completely useless.

I don't have the right to use my ideas against his, but he doesn't have the right either to state that his idea that origins is in the same universe IS correct either without proof. 

 

This is not proof. 

[Guest]

I'm offering other solutions. Just as feeble as everyone else's. 

 

We've been discussing this sense the week after origins was released half a year ago. 

 

The map can exist as an alternate universe, yet cannon, or it can't exist cannon at all. The fact's don't add up. MANY people have brought this to everyone's attention. 

 

And remember  the so called "campaign" team made this map. It's possible it's messed things up trayarch wouldn't have approved of. 

 

And until someone brings forth any rock hard evidence that this IS the same universe or an alternate one, everyone's talk is going to be completely useless.

I don't have the right to use my ideas against his, but he doesn't have the right either to state that his idea that origins is in the same universe IS correct either without proof. 

 

This is not proof. 

 

You are not the decider of what proof is or isnt. The zombies team have to look over what the Single Player team do so it fits in. I have never seen a reason it is in an alternate universe, Sam and Eddie are playing with characters from WaW not Origins. Also its Canon not Cannon.

[DeathBringerZen]

I'm offering other solutions. Just as feeble as everyone else's. 

 

We've been discussing this sense the week after origins was released half a year ago. 

 

The map can exist as an alternate universe, yet cannon, or it can't exist cannon at all. The fact's don't add up. MANY people have brought this to everyone's attention. 

 

And remember  the so called "campaign" team made this map. It's possible it's messed things up trayarch wouldn't have approved of. 

 

And until someone brings forth any rock hard evidence that this IS the same universe or an alternate one, everyone's talk is going to be completely useless.

I don't have the right to use my ideas against his, but he doesn't have the right either to state that his idea that origins is in the same universe IS correct either without proof. 

 

This is not proof. 

 

Mocking, I do not dispute your argument, nor do I agree with it. The ending opens up an interpretation for us all to choose from. Maybe the map is canon, maybe it's not. I don't look at our debate as an arguement... I look at it as two minds trying to find a solution.

 

Maybe I am right, maybe you are. Hell... maybe we are both wrong! The only people who can produce any kind of clarity are the people responsible. I love having debates, and none more so than with you! Why you ask? Because you are straight to the point. You follow a similar believe as me... that Treyarch get more credit than they deserve. Yes, Origins was a shit-hole of a mess that shouldn't have happened, or at the very least should not have presented the story it did. Also that BO2 was a disaster in general.

 

I love opening a discussion with you because you always are willing to respond and actually debate about it. Sometimes it can get heated but at least you are willing to defend your corner. I have no issue with your resposes, proof or not.

 

I accept your arguement but I do not necessarily agree with it. I honestly believe that Origins was intended to be a part of our storyline but they misinterpretated how we would percieve or accept it. This is why I believe it was supposed to be canon but that they will change their mind upon the release of the next game. I believe they intended to draw a line under our current storyline, but will now change that path due to peoples overwhelming hatred at how BO2 turned out.

 

It seems the devs DO bow to our commands (if overwhelming), and will alter their plans based on this. Origins was supposed to be the end of one story and the beginning of a new one. This will ultimately change now though, due to the disdain of that cinematic.

[Dahniska]

Great points and a great read! I do think these descriptions tie in really well with Origins. Well done, Nightmare Voyager, great catch here!

Mocking, please stop trying to argue every time someone talks about Origins. You have no solid proof for your theory about "Origins is another reality" while the opposing side is simply taking things given to us by the developers at face value. You are welcome to keep your opinions but I see no reason why there must be a massive debate every time someone wants to talk about Origins - we've already been over this more than enough. Please, and thank you.

[Stop Mocking Me0]

HE can't make his opinions fact either. THAT is the bridge I'm trying to get him to understand here. 

 

Why are you all looking at me like I'm some communist/nazi that rejects other ideas? He can come up with whatever he wants, the issue I have is him claiming others are wrong and he's right because he like's his idea better. Truth is there is no facts to prove either! So get off my case!

 

And voyager, you are not a decider of proof either. 

 

That's all I am going to say on the subject because I KNOW where these conversations lead. 

[Tasha]

Origins is part of the one and only zombie timeline.

Making up alternate timelines and universes to solve plotholes and try to null the ending is pointless and will only make an already convoluted story even more unnecessarily complicated.

In the end, it was all just a game between 2 children right, so you can solve any plothole or inconsistency by looking at it with a child's perspective.

It's your own game, you make up the rules and story as you go along. Previous events you made up like Maxis's death on Moon isn't going to stop you from re-telling the beginning -- or any other part of the story -- in a different, completely new way.

[thegoldenspork115]

Here's my theory that I've stuck with.

Firstly, Origins is definitely canon. Definitely.

For a few reasons.

First off, why would they end black ops 2 with a non canon map? That'd be really really lame.

More importantly....

Although I don't believe MotD is canon, I think it still serves a big purpose in the official storyline. I think Treyarch made the Mob story the way it is to help us understand Origins. And to help us understand just what "mending the rift" means.

Buried isn't the real Endgame of zombies. Origins is.

But how is that possible considering the events of Origins happened in 1918? It's really simple. I believe that Origins is actually occurring AFTER Moon. I don't know how much time passed after moon though. Maybe it even happened after Buried. Idk. But what i believe happened, is that somehow, some way, the O4 travel back through time all the way to where it started, at Excavation Site 64.

And when they do this, Samantha is once again in control. And when she is "released", the true rift has finally been mended. Thanks to the butterfly effect, the whole story never progressed.

And the only person who still remembers the events of this whole apocalypse, is Samantha Maxis. And that's why we see her retelling the story, which now never happened, with her friend Eddy.

There's a few things that don't fit with this theory though. Including the fact that Sam somehow has dolls resembling the characters we all know.

And why does Eddy want their eyes to be blue? Is he just fond of the color? Or what?

Well that's my theory, anyway, and you guys are right, Treyarch can do whatever they want now.

[Stop Mocking Me0]

Here's my theory that I've stuck with.

Firstly, Origins is definitely canon. Definitely.

For a few reasons.

First off, why would they end black ops 2 with a non canon map? That'd be really really lame.

More importantly....

Although I don't believe MotD is canon, I think it still serves a big purpose in the official storyline. I think Treyarch made the Mob story the way it is to help us understand Origins. And to help us understand just what "mending the rift" means.

Buried isn't the real Endgame of zombies. Origins is.

But how is that possible considering the events of Origins happened in 1918? It's really simple. I believe that Origins is actually occurring AFTER Moon. I don't know how much time passed after moon though. Maybe it even happened after Buried. Idk. But what i believe happened, is that somehow, some way, the O4 travel back through time all the way to where it started, at Excavation Site 64.

And when they do this, Samantha is once again in control. And when she is "released", the true rift has finally been mended. Thanks to the butterfly effect, the whole story never progressed.

And the only person who still remembers the events of this whole apocalypse, is Samantha Maxis. And that's why we see her retelling the story, which now never happened, with her friend Eddy.

There's a few things that don't fit with this theory though. Including the fact that Sam somehow has dolls resembling the characters we all know.

And why does Eddy want their eyes to be blue? Is he just fond of the color? Or what?

Well that's my theory, anyway, and you guys are right, Treyarch can do whatever they want now.

 BINGO, now I'm done talking about the subject. 

[thegoldenspork115]

Mocking, do you need a hug?

[Stop Mocking Me0]

….maybe… 

 

lol, jk.. 

I just get a bit of a thorn in my side when people "trounce" other's ideas to make way for their own. Especially in these situations where no matter the theory, the lack of proof makes the whole thing inoperable. 

[Rissole25]

I mean technically all maps are canon to the zombie storyline. With Mob of the Dead and Origins, originally things probably went differently, but something happened that causes them to play out as we see it. Whether these affect and change the timeline, or they're resolved since they both seem to be in a cycle, I don't know.

We weren't given enough information about what caused these changes though. Getting into it would just cause a headache, but I'm guessing the Rift and Agartha has something to do with it.

[Guest]

HE can't make his opinions fact either. THAT is the bridge I'm trying to get him to understand here. 

 

Why are you all looking at me like I'm some communist/nazi that rejects other ideas? He can come up with whatever he wants, the issue I have is him claiming others are wrong and he's right because he like's his idea better. Truth is there is no facts to prove either! So get off my case!

 

And voyager, you are not a decider of proof either. 

 

That's all I am going to say on the subject because I KNOW where these conversations lead. 

 

Dude I am just watching you argue all over my post, its not that big a deal I just tried linking stuff chill okay its just a game. Also there is fact to back it up the letters from the field show us that they MAY have been planning a WW1 map with a Giant and Staff but then changed it up to suit things in the next game. I do not see why it has to be in another reality anyways the ending could be from the omnipotent perspective of Sam and Eddie for all we know, we were shown the ending technically in Kino der Toten with Sams room. The best bit is we know what happens next as we have seen what happens to Sams room.

[Guest]

….maybe… 

 

lol, jk.. 

I just get a bit of a thorn in my side when people "trounce" other's ideas to make way for their own. Especially in these situations where no matter the theory, the lack of proof makes the whole thing inoperable. 

 

Lack of proof when I made this whole post with a lot of good proof which people have backed up in the comments when you are the one who gave no proof. Nice.

[Stop Mocking Me0]

That's not proof of origin's canon, that's SUGGESTED EVIDENCE that the events PRIOR to origins is canon. Now you "chill". 

[Guest]

That's not proof of origin's canon, that's SUGGESTED EVIDENCE that the events PRIOR to origins is canon. Now you "chill". 

 

Now you are genuinely trying to make it false to fit your needs I dont know what problem you seem to have with me but you need to chill