Both Origins and Ascension in alternate realities?

[corwin1ful]

I have been looking back on the zombie maps of bo1 and bo2 and i noticed tomethng that may just be a coincidence but it might not be so i decided to post it. looking back on the series there are two maps that have a significant difference, acension and origins. why you ask? well its simple, both maps have extremly large plot holes in them that completly do not make sense story wise, and both are lacking the presence of the double tap perk. now like i said this could be completly be nothing but a coincidence but i dont think it is. think about it, what does acension have to do with the storyline what  so ever, it tells a completely different story, and origins, well i think most of you already know that theat map doesnt fit, the only thing that ties these maps to the other maps are the characters, and the various mystery box tech like der wunderfiz, think about it, the only thing that is taken from acension and into the other maps is the gersch device in moon, which comes out of the mystery box, and again the only thing that connects origins to any of the other maps is the characters, and the mystery box tech,  now there is ways to recive double tap in origins, but only through the mystery box tech like der wunderfiz and the chest, both of which are able to pull things from no where....like the mystery box. now it is already true that the mystery box pulls weapons from other times and realitys because we have weapons that do not belong in the times and worlds that the story takes place, so what if origins and ascension took place in alternate timelines that had nothing to do with the core story, it would make sense, and clear up many plot holes that these maps have created. but its just a theory, let me know if i got anything incorect grammar or story wise.

 

[Guest]

Considering that in CotD, the group mention Gersh and I dont see any plot holes with those maps. But I see what you are saying about all the tech in Origins. While I still think it is the beginning of the zombies story, it doesn't mean to say inter dimensional travel isn't possible for the characters. Maybe thats where Origins ended off, they went to the normal timeline and due to the journey began to lose their memories. I dont know.

[Tac]

I can understand your plot hole reference in Ascension. Albeit, not as much as Origins, but there are certainly mysteries.

With all that said, I am currently not prepared to say that any map is not related to the core story. I've advocated for alternate timelines existing for a long time and now that they're here, I want to advocate for them not existing haha. Not necessarily true, but they really start to mess things up so until the next game, I want to keep saying that all maps are important, relevant, and related in regards to the core story.

[Electric Jesus]

Well also remember there is another thing that we took away from Ascension, which was the Casimir mechanism. We didn't literally take it with us but Richtofen used his knowledge of it to power up the golden rod on Moon. That didn't not happen, or how else would he have known how to do it? I admit something is fishy about Ascension but I think it definitely all happened, one way or another.

[Guest]

I wonder if its at all possible that there was some sort of big event to do with how they got too and out of Ascension. I mean it seems as if they are in some sort of cycle while surviving there. I dont mean like the big cycle but maybe one like MotD? The characters could have got caught up in it?

[Stop Mocking Me0]

ascension actually did play a big role in the backstory of the thunder gun, and honestly I'd be OK if trayarch gave us an occasional map like that where we focus on, oh say, the history of one of the features of the map before it. It's better then going completely off track to an area of little-to-no-importance (I'm looking at you die-rise) 

Edited January 14, 2015 by Stop mocking me0

[Guest]

ascension actually did play a big role in the backstory of the thunder gun, and honestly I'd be OK if trayarch gave us an occasional map like that where we focus on, oh say, the history of one of the features of the map before it. It's better then going completely off track to an area of little-to-no-importance (I'm looking at you die-rise) 

 

Hey Die Rise had the... Oh wait, Yeah, your wrong it was so important because... They could have made both Die Rise and Tranzit cutscenes and start off at Buried to be honest, which they did a bit with the intro to Buried.

[corwin1ful]

Yes ascension did contribute some to the story i guess, but the thunder gun could, like double tap, be pulled through the dimensional rift by using the mystery box, and yes the casimir mechanism was important, i guess i over looked it, but it still is a bit strange how ascension seems to be out of order with the other maps. it seems as though the orginal four teleported form kino to cotd witch leaves ascension shrouded in mystery, how exactly did they get there if the maps are infact cronological, and how did they get from a soviet cosmodrome with no evidence of having teleporter technology, to Cotd? so many questions left unanswered, treyarch needs to release an official timeline or these questions may be left unanswered.

[Guest]

Yes ascension did contribute some to the story i guess, but the thunder gun could, like double tap, be pulled through the dimensional rift by using the mystery box, and yes the casimir mechanism was important, i guess i over looked it, but it still is a bit strange how ascension seems to be out of order with the other maps. it seems as though the orginal four teleported form kino to cotd witch leaves ascension shrouded in mystery, how exactly did they get there if the maps are infact cronological, and how did they get from a soviet cosmodrome with no evidence of having teleporter technology, to Cotd? so many questions left unanswered, treyarch needs to release an official timeline or these questions may be left unanswered.

 

I don't think it exactly matters how they got there. The same could be said about all maps except those with intros.

[Stop Mocking Me0]

If anything it would seem the thunder gun was pulled through to Kino, rather then the other way around.... 

[Guest]

To be honest why does everything have to be from another dimension? It seems as if its just more confusing than anything.

[corwin1ful]

the mystery box pulls weapons through time and dimensions. this is the excuse for having things like, for example black ops 2 weapons in bo2 new 4 zombies while transit supposedly took pace in the 60s. If the zombie apocolypse has happened then the campaign never happens. so the box pulls weapons through from that other dimension the the alternate zombies dimension. so yes the box has to pull weapons through alternate dimensions

[Guest]

the mystery box pulls weapons through time and dimensions. this is the excuse for having things like, for example black ops 2 weapons in bo2 new 4 zombies while transit supposedly took pace in the 60s. If the zombie apocolypse has happened then the campaign never happens. so the box pulls weapons through from that other dimension the the alternate zombies dimension. so yes the box has to pull weapons through alternate dimensions

It doesn't have to be an alternate dimension, their is the time loop we see in zombies, in that the earth is destroyed in the 60s. But in actual reality, the world obviously progresses into 2025. The time loop is a place where things seem to happen and paradoxes can be contained due to the time loop resetting and retconning the events. If you don't understand what I am talking about please say as everything is very hard to comprehend to do with this timeline stuff.

[Tac]

@Nightmare Voyager, that's what I was thinking when I said I don't want alternate dimensions to exist haha. I'm fearful of it becoming a scapegoat and being used for anything and everything out of place.

[Guest]

@Nightmare Voyager, that's what I was thinking when I said I don't want alternate dimensions to exist haha. I'm fearful of it becoming a scapegoat and being used for anything and everything out of place.

Sadly a lot of the community use it as one already, if you tried to disprove it you may end up being told that 115 is the answer. But I guess some people dream big and want more than just 1 story, which I personally see no need for and don't need.

[Stop Mocking Me0]

It's already a scapegoat, its been used to explain the MOTD perk machines, the difference in WW1 in Origins, the PAP, the box... And so many things to come.. 

[Guest]

It's already a scapegoat, its been used to explain the MOTD perk machines, the difference in WW1 in Origins, the PAP, the box... And so many things to come.. 

 

No, it hasnt. You just theorize that it is. You can't claim a theory to be fact like that without confirmation.

[InfestLithium]

 

It's already a scapegoat, its been used to explain the MOTD perk machines, the difference in WW1 in Origins, the PAP, the box... And so many things to come.. 

 

No, it hasnt. You just theorize that it is. You can't claim a theory to be fact like that without confirmation.

 

 

Everything is just theory.

 

Mob of the Dead alludes to our universe but within purgatory, which in itself is inside a different realm other than reality. Hence, why Alcatraz Island never actually became zombified but rather what the mobsters had to endure in this version of Hell.

 

Origins is not fully cannon because if Group 935 indeed found the deposits of Element 115 and created the technology that they did, surely they would've won the war. Unfortunately for them, it wasn't the case because history was rewritten (or so we presume). It's suggested that this is a differing universe, though it could easily just be a re-edited past of what could have happened.

 

The Pack-a-Punch machine does not exist in our dimension; perhaps in our universe still, but bear in mind that it pulls weapons from somewhere else. When a gun is put into it, it completely disappears in a flash and returns with un-realistic features: laser-esque ammo infused with 115 and potentially something else. Ethereal energy perhaps? Who knows. Whatever it is, it's pulling it from somewhere else.

 

For the longest time, people began to question whether Kino der Toten was even in the Zombies universe, as an alternate reality. The key lied in the construction of the Berlin radio tower and the date brought upon the map. To say that alternate universes is not possible is absurd - Treyarch has most certainly pointed to the possibility and even our feet wet in the idea without flat out telling us. Nothing is fact in Zombies, besides a handful of small details.

[Guest]

 

 

It's already a scapegoat, its been used to explain the MOTD perk machines, the difference in WW1 in Origins, the PAP, the box... And so many things to come.. 

 

No, it hasnt. You just theorize that it is. You can't claim a theory to be fact like that without confirmation.

 

 

Everything is just theory.

 

Mob of the Dead alludes to our universe but within purgatory, which in itself is inside a different realm other than reality. Hence, why Alcatraz Island never actually became zombified but rather what the mobsters had to endure in this version of Hell.

 

Origins is not fully cannon because if Group 935 indeed found the deposits of Element 115 and created the technology that they did, surely they would've won the war. Unfortunately for them, it wasn't the case because history was rewritten (or so we presume). It's suggested that this is a differing universe, though it could easily just be a re-edited past of what could have happened.

 

The Pack-a-Punch machine does not exist in our dimension; perhaps in our universe still, but bear in mind that it pulls weapons from somewhere else. When a gun is put into it, it completely disappears in a flash and returns with un-realistic features: laser-esque ammo infused with 115 and potentially something else. Ethereal energy perhaps? Who knows. Whatever it is, it's pulling it from somewhere else.

 

For the longest time, people began to question whether Kino der Toten was even in the Zombies universe, as an alternate reality. The key lied in the construction of the Berlin radio tower and the date brought upon the map. To say that alternate universes is not possible is absurd - Treyarch has most certainly pointed to the possibility and even our feet wet in the idea without flat out telling us. Nothing is fact in Zombies, besides a handful of small details.

 

 

I didnt say its not possible I was saying that people shouldn't just rely on it as if its a known fact. Some things in the story we dont know, simple, but it doesnt mean any theories on it have to be true.

[Tattoo247]

I've always thought of them as just periods of time, and a long the way, whether we're going forward or back in time, we are making changes that alter our own reality.

 

That is the whole basis to this game, to me anyway, is to alter timelines. In CotD for example, Richtofen went too far into the future by mistake, and in doing so changed our modern world, the 2000s, into a zombie infested hellhole. I'm sure he was planning on going to a time where everything wasn't frozen, making it easier to get the golden rod. But instead, Richtofen got lucky and was basically handed the Golden Rod, he then went back in time to use the Golden Rod with the Focusing stone to create the key to the pyramid.

 

Fast forward to Moon, the golden rod is in Richtofen's possession, well into the current time of our own, thus making CoTD disappear from the timeline, not that Romero and cast didn't go to the area and film a movie, but rather it was a successful attempt that wasn't ruined by Richtofen, because he already has the rod and doesn't need to go to that area in our current time. Also not saying CoTD and Moon were on the same day, just in the time period of the player, us.

 

If say, Takeo had managed to go back in time, and hide the golden rod in another location, he could have prevented Richtofen's past self from finding it, at least so easily.

 

It's kind of the same for Origins, Samantha is rewriting the game more or less, so she doesn't lose power, or maybe so her and her father can just have a normal life. This is where it all blurs for me, the true intention of Samantha, all we know for sure is she doesn't want Richtofen to have his power. How she is aware of her fate before it actually happening I don't know, but to me she is aware eventually Richtofen will steal her power and lead to the worlds end. Freeing her merely allows her to create a fresh start, but perhaps some things can't be rewritten, as we hear sirens going off probably signaling an outbreak.

 

I hope that wasn't too confusing.

[Guest]

You posted twice btw, I get the last paragraph but the rest really doesn't make sense to me

[Tattoo247]

I deleted the 2nd, I'll try to simplify it, and I'm only using the golden rod as an example.

 

The rod is in what I think I remember to be Siberia, frozen. The CoTD cast retrieve it for Richtofen.

 

Richtofen goes back in time to Shangri La, usues the Golden rod to make a key.

 

Richtofen goes to Moon, more or less current time, uses the golden rod. There for it was never lost in Siberia, it's been in the possession of Richtofen from the time jump from SRL to Moon, making CoTD irrelevant and an unnecessary place to visit. Not they the players don't remember being there, just that CoTD cast have no memory because it technically didn't happen.

 

Replace Richtofen with Samantha, replace golden rod with her being "freed" and replace the time jumps from SRL to Moon, to Origins and further onward.

 

Just me two cents.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Tattoo247

[Guest]

I deleted the 2nd, I'll try to simplify it, and I'm only using the golden rod as an example.

 

The rod is in what I think I remember to be Siberia, frozen. The CoTD cast retrieve it for Richtofen.

 

Richtofen goes back in time to Shangri La, usues the Golden rod to make a key.

 

Richtofen goes to Moon, more or less current time, uses the golden rod. There for it was never lost in Siberia, it's been in the possession of Richtofen from the time jump from SRL to Moon, making CoTD irrelevant and an unnecessary place to visit. Not they the players don't remember being there, just that CoTD cast have no memory because it technically didn't happen.

 

Replace Richtofen with Samantha, replace golden rod with her being "freed" and replace the time jumps from SRL to Moon, to Origins and further onward.

 

Just me two cents.

 

Oh I get it, I dont think thats how time travel works though. If you sent a walnut back in time to before it existed, the walnut would have to still exist in the first place or there will be a paradox. If the golden rod was brought to the moon by Richtofen, he would have had to go and get it otherwise he wouldnt have it. If what your saying is that because he has it on the moon and it exists on earth, he wouldnt have ever gone to Siberia. Well he would have and did as we saw in the map. Timelines cant just take a chunk out of reality without creating a huge paradox in its wake. Two items and people can exist next to eachother as long as the past version is not destroyed.

[Tattoo247]

I see, but as time travel isn't a real thing, no one knows how it works for sure.

 

 

It just seems that the only thing that doesn't change within time travel would be the objects traveling. The walnut from the future traveling backwards would no longer exist in the future, it would exist in the past, it would age, decay and would not exist in the time it had originally.

 

Just like you exist today, but as of today, you don't exist tomorrow...

[Guest]

I see, but as time travel isn't a real thing, no one knows how it works for sure.

 

 

It just seems that the only thing that doesn't change within time travel would be the objects traveling. The walnut from the future traveling backwards would no longer exist in the future, it would exist in the past, it would age, decay and would not exist in the time it had originally.

 

Just like you exist today, but as of today, you don't exist tomorrow...

 

I think 3arch would stick to these kind of time travel rules, especially since there are mentions of paradoxes themselves. I heard a theory once that timelines can never be changed. If you go back in time and kill yourself the return to your time, the only thing that will happen is everything that had already happened. But the loop in zombies is itself a paradox, the same as in MotD and Shangri La. Time travel follows basic principals in them, but in the rest of Black Ops 2 it seems as if time is colliding with itself. So maybe the future can still exist and interact with the past, even though their isnt a future. Idk im just rambling a bit about time travel to be honest.