Has anyone discussed the (literal) Giant behind the mainframe?

[Guest]

I know some discussion was made before the map came out because of the promotional image but there is literally a Giant from Origins being built back there. The Giant is as far as we know a prequel to the original so what happened in between to make that Giant disappear? Why is it even there? I think it is what Maxis was talking about when he wanted money to fund finding 115 to fuel his Giant project. I think he planned on restoring this thing, or maybe this is the first instance of a Giant existing in this universe? I haven't really seen much discussion about this so I want to know what people think about it really and what connotations it has.

[Cheesegrater28]

What sucks about the direction of the new story line is discussing these details seems so irrelevant now, which is a shame because it used to be one of the fun aspects of digging into these maps. Everything mattered.

Since now we know that there are multiple dimensions and multiple versions of the universe, this map could simply just be in a different realm/dimension/universe. Meaning, the original Der Riese was in one universe, Origins was in another, and now The Giant is in a third. The events of Origins most likely wouldn't have happened before Der Riese, and clearly the Richtofen in The Giant is different from the Origins one. So details on each map probably don't really connect to each other directly. At least that's the scenario these two new maps are painting for us. I think that's why we haven't seen to much discussion about the details in the maps. Other than the radios, its hard to say what will and won't tie into other maps or the main story. 

[Guest]

Well I think that there was a main universe at one point but all this time travelling and changing time has caused alternate worlds to transpire. I am not sure though because there is a lot we don't know yet. I see the old games as showing the bad route. Where Richtofen and Maxis get corrupted and caught in an eternal conflict. Now we have the good route where Richtofen and Maxis are trying to fix things by helping each other.

[Tac]

It's about time we had a thread on this!  So first and foremost, similar to what @Cheesegrater28 said, The Giant is not a prequel to Der Riese, per se.  The Giant and Der Riese take place in two completely separate timelines so for the robot head to be there is not an issue in terms of it not being there in Der Riese.  Additionally, because it is two separate timelines, I personally don't believe that Maxis was referring to the robots when he sent that letter to the Reichstag asking for more funding.  As for why it's in The Giant almost three decades after Origins, that's a bit different, but I subscribe to the idea that it's merely being repaired, not being built for the first time.  This would mean that Origins and The Giant can still be in the same timeline, which I think is significant.

[Cheesegrater28]

Its possible for The Giant and Origins to be in the same timeline but unlikely (In my own super genius opinion which means nothing). It would require a lot of extra things a few members on here theorized about before BO3's release. Like how Maxis seems to still be alive and have a daughter before The Giant, even though we last saw him as a brain inside a drone in Origins. This could be explained by we never see his body so he might be a in a robot still, or maybe a body transplant. Who knows since the possibility is always there, but it makes for a harder case to sell. Same with Origins Richtofen and Giant Richtofen. They seem like two completely different people, not to mention even if young Richtofen time traveled forward, wouldn't older Richtofen have memories of this if they are in the same timeline. Again, this could all be explained away by how people perceive time travel, but like Maxis' body being dead in Origins, it makes it the harder option over The Giant is just in a different timeline. Especially since we are now told that's a part of the story now.  

My own opinion on it, is to show how these alternate universes are infinitely different yet can still be very much the same. Der Riese had the Giant project, while Origins had actual Giant robots in WW1, and yet The Giant seems to have the robots in WWII. If they had the robots in WW1 and lost, why waste time rebuilding the same robots, especially when the world would have 20+ years to make improvements. Group 935 would be beyond that kind of research and technology by 1945 if that's what they were doing in 1918. 

[Stop Mocking Me0]

I don't think the giant, SOE/origins could be on the same timeline.... 

 

Think about it, richtofen is in the giant both as crazy WAW richtofen and young richtofen, which is cool and all but it basically proves it's another universe. If it was the same universe, then richtofen just killed himself, and would always know he's killed himself, and thus wouldn't become crazy richtofen, whom he would then not be able to kill. It's a paradox unless you consider that he is killing a diffrent richtofen from a similar timeline. 

Also maxis explains that this site was shut down years ago (back after origins) and also multidiminsionality. 

 

 

 

Soe/origins is my own personal theory. 

In the origins universe samantha appears and takes control of the moon pyramid device (MPD), likewise, this causes issues as there's already a MPD here. She somewhat stops the signal from being used. Ruining it's plan to abduct richtofen years later in 1941. (Which was stopped anyways when richtofen entered the portal in origins.) Richtofen would then go on to not build griffenstation, which is why we have that altered moon loading screen picture in that trailer they gave us. 

 

Instead the germans fell after origins, leaving the french and americans the ability to reverse-engineer the technology from the germans. The result? Morg city. Set in 1945, but it has technology far more advanced then what it was. Massive train transit systems, robotic police enforcers, collapsible stairways and Dr. Monty's Gobble Gums. None of this previously possible in an average city. 

The moon pyramid device then decided to activate phase two. With samantha gone quiet at the reins of the main controller, one of the receiving relays would be hijacked by a nearby universe: The world of the shadowman. Margs with a long history of attempting to break the seal left by the vrill on the door to let in legions of their kind upon the world. There were two components to this: The ball artifact device, otherwise known as the summoning key, and sacrifices. 

Knowing the four sinners could be provoked to kill, the shadowmen (beings from the squid-side) use their advanced technology to awaken the 115 embedded in all the advanced technology (which you remember was brought about from the machinations of the origins robots which as well ran off of 115). Sparing the lives of the sinners by linking them with the abilities of their marg-counterparts. The 'beastmode" we see is actually 115 being infused to gain the body of the marg-version of Nero, Jessica, Floyd, and Jack. This was intended to be used to activate the ritual. 

With the rest of the city in shambles, it was up to these 4 to find hope. Which they found in the shadowman. Tricking the 4 into killing once again with the summoning stone, the relay was then used to allow the siege of the universe to come through. The margs began to seep out, despite the wraith-like vrill guardians attempting to stop them. With the help of the sinners, the wraiths manage to then combat the margs, sending them back to their own universe by using the summoning stone. 

From here, richtofen appears again and take the stone with him to "The Giant". 

 

Basically that's my thinking for why I think the origins universe is the same as SOE's. 

[TheDunbarian]

@Stop Mocking Me0: Applause for you sir, that's a hell of a theory. Not sure if it's right, but it's pretty sound. This would mean that all of the campaign team's original maps - MotD, Origins, and SoE - would take place in the same universe (the Giant doesn't really count since it's not really an original map).

[Tac]

5 hours ago, Cheesegrater28 said:

Same with Origins Richtofen and Giant Richtofen. They seem like two completely different people, not to mention even if young Richtofen time traveled forward, wouldn't older Richtofen have memories of this if they are in the same timeline.

46 minutes ago, Stop Mocking Me0 said:

Think about it, richtofen is in the giant both as crazy WAW richtofen and young richtofen, which is cool and all but it basically proves it's another universe. If it was the same universe, then richtofen just killed himself, and would always know he's killed himself, and thus wouldn't become crazy richtofen, whom he would then not be able to kill. It's a paradox unless you consider that he is killing a diffrent richtofen from a similar timeline. 

First and foremost, after spending the 30 seconds thinking about it and reading these replies, instead of thinking I had a clear understanding, I absolutely concede that I'm wrong.  No possible way for Giant and Origins to be the same timeline.  I want to point out, however, that neither of these two things proves it.  The personalities can be explained by saying that even if Origins and The Giant were the same timeline, it begins converging with the original timeline and becomes altered.

6 hours ago, Cheesegrater28 said:

My own opinion on it, is to show how these alternate universes are infinitely different yet can still be very much the same. Der Riese had the Giant project, while Origins had actual Giant robots in WW1, and yet The Giant seems to have the robots in WWII. If they had the robots in WW1 and lost, why waste time rebuilding the same robots, especially when the world would have 20+ years to make improvements. Group 935 would be beyond that kind of research and technology by 1945 if that's what they were doing in 1918. 

I had thought of that, but reasoned it away as simply them making repairs on a very old one.

6 hours ago, Cheesegrater28 said:

Like how Maxis seems to still be alive and have a daughter before The Giant, even though we last saw him as a brain inside a drone in Origins. This could be explained by we never see his body so he might be a in a robot still, or maybe a body transplant.

This is a fantastic point, and frankly, one that I had never thought of (somehow).  Bravo.

@Stop Mocking Me0, that's vertainly an interesting theory haha.  I don't believe the Apothicon Rift Stone is connected to the ball on Moon just yet, nor that the Moon EE really counts as "sacrifices" in the same sense, but who knows.  By "wraith-like vrill guardians," are you referring to the Keepers?  Your use of terms is confusing me, a little.

[Stop Mocking Me0]

Constants and variables Tac. 

Every universe is exactly the same until it's different. The luteces knew that. We sacrifice things at four alters on both maps to feed a device on a circular panel which requires a ball-like artifact to work. 

See the connections now? If not just look at the difference in the moon artifact and the summoning stone. They're painstakingly similar. 

 

Also yes the keepers are the wraiths. I say that because I believe the "ancient society" is of vrill-ya origin. But I also don't think those things are Vrill-ya either. The keepers are more like wraiths, they appear from  plasma-esque portals, and depict horribly disfigured cloaked visions of the past. I'd like to think the keepers are a sort of fire-wall to keep people from activating the device to allow species like the margs to cross over. But that's just a hunch with no viable evidence. 

[Tac]

Just now, Stop Mocking Me0 said:

Constants and variables Tac. 

Every universe is exactly the same until it's different. The luteces knew that. We sacrifice things at four alters on both maps to feed a device on a circular panel which requires a ball-like artifact to work. 

See the connections now? If not just look at the difference in the moon artifact and the summoning stone. They're painstakingly similar. 

 

Also yes the keepers are the wraiths. I say that because I believe the "ancient society" is of vrill-ya origin. But I also don't think those things are Vrill-ya either. The keepers are more like wraiths, they appear from  plasma-esque portals, and depict horribly disfigured cloaked visions of the past. I'd like to think the keepers are a sort of fire-wall to keep people from activating the device to allow species like the margs to cross over. But that's just a hunch with no viable evidence. 

The reason I don't see the connection is because I consider the Moon orb to be specific to that timeline and only work in that timeline, whereas the Apothicon Rift Stone isn't specific to any timeline and actually works in the entire Universe.  I see them as having fundamentally different purposes, so I don't think they can be described as the same thing but in different timelines.

Also, I can see where you're coming from with that.  Certainly a possible theory.

[Stop Mocking Me0]

Richtofen refers to the ball on the moon as an artifact, just like the shadowman, furthermore it alone was used to power the rockets sent to destroy the earth. Remember that. It wasn't the rod, it was the round VERY SIMILAR LOOKING stone that was sucked into the gersh device that destroyed the earth. A stone strong enough to power three missiles capable of destroying the earth?  Sounds like one of the most powerful artifacts of any universe. 

 

Furthermore whos to say the orb on "moon" wouldn't work in other worlds? 

[Guest]

A thought occurred to me as I fell asleep last night and its really nagging at me, while also hindering me from working on a theory that's beginning to formulate about this whole new arc in the story.

Tank, Takeo and Nikolai say they have been travelling through time for 2 years while Richtofen has been doing who knows what (time/space/dimensional travel). But this is where it confuses me. If the Giant is a different timeline, then how did the O3 time travel to it when that's what they have been doing and had no interaction with Richtofen? In all fairness the Giant timeline seems like it could derive from Origins, although it would be an Origins where the map didn't occur the way we saw it, leading to Maxis' survival and Richtofen going down the evil path. Origins became an alternate universe when Sam and Eddy first intervened with it, so that timeline didn't become the Giant although without their intervention it could.

I don't know if that's right though, for all I know it is in a different universe and they just weren't clear on their explanation of the O3 travelling through dimensions.

[BennetsGreen]

bare with me.... maybe...... just maybe.... they are taking apart the robot not building it???

[Tac]

@Nightmare Voyager, to me, the Origins 3 seem to have tabs on either the many old Richtofen's or the singular young Richtofen, as those two interact in various timelines.  I say he must be keeping tabs because when young Richtofen kills old Richtofen, Dempsey says "I thought we were done with this!"  Now, I say that tabs are being kept on the many old Richtofen's, instead of the singular young Richtofen, because Dempsey asked young Richtofen where he'd been for two years (pointing to no tabs on young Richtofen), and Nikolai mentions killing multiple Richtofen's (possible indication of tab on many old Richtofen's).  Somehow, they know when something is going to happen to an old Richtofen and in The Giant, it is the first time in two years that they have known something was going to happen.  Does that seem plausible?

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Tac said:

@Nightmare Voyager, to me, the Origins 3 seem to have tabs on either the many old Richtofen's or the singular young Richtofen, as those two interact in various timelines.  I say he must be keeping tabs because when young Richtofen kills old Richtofen, Dempsey says "I thought we were done with this!"  Now, I say that tabs are being kept on the many old Richtofen's, instead of the singular young Richtofen, because Dempsey asked young Richtofen where he'd been for two years (pointing to no tabs on young Richtofen), and Nikolai mentions killing multiple Richtofen's (possible indication of tab on many old Richtofen's).  Somehow, they know when something is going to happen to an old Richtofen and in The Giant, it is the first time in two years that they have known something was going to happen.  Does that seem plausible?

 

Sort of but they don't go around changing time. That radio from Nikolai is from a Nikolai after the Giant. Nikolai in this map has not killed a Richtofen yet. Also the others seem to be opposed to changing time and don't know what will now happen as a result. Whatever agenda they are following it obviously isn't under Maxis like Richtofen is so what their intentions are apart from lightning their own beacon is unknown to me. That still doesn't explain if the Giant is in Origins timeline or not and if not, how they travelled over dimensions.

[Cheesegrater28]

My main reason I hate this direction for the story is because so many details from past maps no longer matter. Like the Berlin Wall and Tower outside the map on Kino that some members used to pinpoint the map's date between 1961 and 1969. That's a great find. But now, its like that stuff doesn't matter because Kino could take place in a universe where that stuff was all built in the 40s. So its frustrating that these maps give so little info to go on, but now we are given the problem of not knowing which universe/timeline these maps take place. So the little bits of info become useless without a bigger piece of info telling us what counts and what doesn't. One could say that Shin No and Der Riese occurred in a different timelines that were very similar but still had differences, and that's why some of the details seem to have trouble adding up. And if that is indeed the case, then it makes the story we crafted through the years almost useless. 

So now, the actual maps themselves seem less important to discuss and all we have to go on are the actual characters we are thinking to be the important ones. Does Moon Sam even matter or will the Giant Sam become important. Or are we ignoring all German versions of her in favor of the young American versions of Sam and Eddie who are the important "children".  

None of this may be the case. We still might have a simpler story going on with limited versions of the characters and all previous BO2 maps probably have been in the same timeline. But like the BO2 ending which suggests its all a kids game, this multiverse scenario makes it hard to care about the details of the story like we did with the old games, knowing Treyarch is playing with the idea those details don't matter to the overall story. They pretty much took the puzzle pieces we've been working on and told us they all might go to different puzzles. I'm hoping we're still get clarity on some of this and it would be cool if we started to see which puzzles these pieces went to, like if we could find out that this new Giant timeline is the same as CotD through some hidden detail. It just sucks to discuss these things now since everything has become disconnected. 

[BennetsGreen]

has anyone noticed the civil protector and the giant robot have the same head? at least it is on the box where you call him