INCONSISTENCY ALERT

[Monopoly Mac]

How the hell is Takeo Masaki being held here on Pohnpei when he is supposed to be in cryochamber in Siberia? Let me back up. Takeo along with the other test subjects were put into cryochambers by 935. It is assumed that Richtofen conditioned these test subjects and brainwashed them just like in the original timeline. But somehow Takeo is here in a cell on the island of Pohnpei. 

Furthermore, a note on the map from emperor says not to let Takeo leave the island alive. How could he have ever been in 935's possession if they never let him off the island? 

Discuss.

 

EDIT: I have come to a conclusion after much deliberation. The only explanation that could be possible here.... is that Division 9, despite being ordered to keep Takeo on the island, gave him to Group 935. When the Origins characters teleported into Der Riese, they sent Takeo back to Pohnpei where he resided in his cell. 

Edited April 29, 2016 by Monopoly Mac

[tEfugleskremmel]

Simple. I point to the chalkboard cipher:

EDWARD AS YOU KNOW IT IS IMPERATIVE YOU AND THE GROUP FIND THE EXACT VERSIONS OF YOURSELVES THAT I HAVE HIGHLIGHTED IN EACH UNIVERSE ONLY BY KILLING THAT VERSION OF YOURSELF IN THAT PARTICULAR UNIVERSE AT THAT PARTICULAR MOMENT IN TIME WILL WE BE SUCCESSFUL ONCE EACH OF YOUR OTHER SELVES ARE KILLED ACROSS ALL UNIVERSES REMEMBER WE ARE ONLY IMMUNE BECAUSE WE OPENED THE PORTAL IN FRANCE BUT I AM AFRAID THIS MIGHT NOT BE PERMANENT I FEAR THERE IS SOMETHING M ISN T TELLING ME AND THAT THERE IS NOT MUCH TIME LEFT FOR US

This would indicate that either we're in a different universe from Dempsey 1.0, or Takeo being held captive here happened before his capture by Group 935. While Division 9 were instructed to never let him leave, I doubt that'd stop Group 935 from extracting him after the facility fell to the zombies. 

[Stop Mocking Me0]

We could also infer this from the fact that Groph hasn't met with Richtofen yet. 

How it SHOULD go is that "Protocol 935" spiel should have taken place THEN the events just before "The Giant" should have gone down. But it's reversed. 

[Schrödinger]

According to a radio from Call Of The Dead, the Group 935 has captured Takeo before September 2nd 1945, Zetsubou No Shima may therefore happen before that date, contrary to The Giant and Der Eisendrache.

[Matuzz]

The thing is all these universes are different. I'm 99% sure these are not all THE originals ones or that all these maps would be in THE original universe.

[tEfugleskremmel]

Plus The Giant happens before Der Reise, seeing as we arrive when Richtofen teleports Maxis and Samantha. And we know this occurs while Germany was still in the throes of the war. The new map bio card gave us the year of 1945 with no specific date. Given that the Germans surrendered on May 8, 1945, then The Giant must occur between January 1- May 8. Japan wouldn't surrender until August 15 of that year and didn't officially sign their surrender until September 2. So that still gives us a plausible window of January 1 - September 2 for him to be a captive of Division 9 before being taken by or handed over to Group 935. 

With there being multiple universes in play, there's no guarantee these dates are accurate. ZNS could even take place earlier, cut chances are its in 1945. Hopefully a future bio card will tell us. And if so, there's plenty of time with those date for all of this to line up. 

[NaBrZHunter]

@tEfugleskremmel however, we know from the CotD radios that Richtofen didn't teleport Maxis away until after October 1st, 1945, which messes with events in both the original and new unverses. This means that both The Giant and Der Riese occur no earlier than that date, and as you said, The Giant is even before Der Riese, meaning the latter could even have been in November. 

[Matuzz]

My theory is that the Maxis in the radios and ciphers in Black Ops III was from universe where he had found out about the eventual doom of the world and what was causing it. He took young Richtofen under his wings and raised him for the mission that was supposed to fix things once and for all. Before that universe was going to be destroyed by apparently some sort of nuclear catastrophe Maxis teleported Samantha and Eddie away.

We don't know yet where Samantha went but Eddie began his quest that Maxis had planned out. He came together with the "pure" versions of Tank, Takeo and Nikolai and started to clean the universes from the things that were caused by Group 935. This for some reasons meant that they would need to kill all other themselves from the universes. Sometimes they put up fight other times not. I believe we are now killing the last remaining O4 characters in the remaining universes.

[Tac]

Exactly what @NaBrZHunter said. We have no reason to believe that these universes aren't very similar and that things aren't translating over from one to the other. (Yes, there are of course differences, but most/all differences we have seen have been caused by the Origins 4, not an inherently different universe). So because of this, I think there's an answer to this inconsistency and it fits just fine with the original universe. The hard part is figuring it out, which I haven't really been able to do yet haha.

[Stop Mocking Me0]

7 minutes ago, Tac said:

Exactly what @NaBrZHunter said. We have no reason to believe that these universes aren't very similar and that things aren't translating over from one to the other. (Yes, there are of course differences, but most/all differences we have seen have been caused by the Origins 4, not an inherently different universe). So because of this, I think there's an answer to this inconsistency and it fits just fine with the original universe. The hard part is figuring it out, which I haven't really been able to do yet haha.

That still doesn't address why Groph is having the same conversation with Richtofen after the fact as opposed to before the fact.

[Slade]

1 hour ago, Stop Mocking Me0 said:

That still doesn't address why Groph is having the same conversation with Richtofen after the fact as opposed to before the fact.

It does actually.
In the original timeline, Groph talks with Richtofen 1.0 whilst Richtofen is at Der Riese right before he betrays Maxis.
However, in the Origins timeline, Richtofen 1.0 is killed before this conversation + betrayal happened, so therefore, his conversation with Groph never happened at Der Riese.
Instead, it happened later at Der Eisendrache. I forgot that Richtofen 1.0 is killed after betraying Maxis. Still, his conversation with Groph never happened in this universe until the events of DE. Hence the "No, Maxis has already been dealt with." remark from Richtofen to Groph in Der Eisendrache. It's proof the original conversation was supposed to happen before the betrayal at the Giant.
Groph specifically mentions that after the Giant fell he feared the worst for Richtofen's fate. Origins Richtofen then just plays the game along. Since he says exactly the same stuff that Richtofen 1.0 said, this is further proof that all this dimension shifting jumping causes the Origins Crews to have memories of their 1.0 versions (as stated by a cypher in ZNS). Like Dempsey mentioning he remembers seeing the PaP on the moon while that version of him never went to the moon.

@Monopoly Mac ZNS definitely takes place in a different universe. Another piece that backs this up is the cypher that tells Brock and Gary (dudes from Shangri-La) died in a airplane crash after discovering Shangri-La. 
In this universe Brock and Gary never got trapped in Shang and instead managed to tell the world of their discovery.

 

[Stop Mocking Me0]

So... No it's not addressed, so that's evidence this IS a different universe.

[Tac]

6 hours ago, Slade said:

@Monopoly Mac ZNS definitely takes place in a different universe. Another piece that backs this up is the cypher that tells Brock and Gary (dudes from Shangri-La) died in a airplane crash after discovering Shangri-La. 
In this universe Brock and Gary never got trapped in Shang and instead managed to tell the world of their discovery.

I think there are many different ways of interpreting that cipher, as I personally don't read it that way. The latest version I'm aware of is this (it's gotten changed a few times):

Urgent Telegram. We have just received word that the private plane carrying the expedition crew encountered freak atmospheric event which caused it to crash, killing all on board including the famous explorers Brock and Gary. This comes weeks after owner announcement fight about the location of Shangri-La.

When I read this, I see it as them dying before traveling to Shangri-La. He knew of and found the location, but had yet to go.

2 hours ago, Stop Mocking Me0 said:

So... No it's not addressed, so that's evidence this IS a different universe.

Not sure if this was there the whole time or not, but he crossed some stuff out and edited it, so it may be updated from the last time you read it. Also, I don't think anyone is arguing it is the same universe. That would be absurd, Simply that things happening in both are largely following the same timeline.

[Monopoly Mac]

Cool discussion guys. But different universes and stuff aside, just think about it in the context of this ONE universe. In this universe, Richtofen teleports Maxis and Samantha away in Der Riese. And seemingly at the same time, Takeo is prisoner in the Div 9 facility on Pohnpei. BUT, Takeo was at one point in a cryochamber just like Tank Dempsey as we can see in this photo in Der Eisendrache. 

Now the note from the emperor found in Zetsubou says not to let Takeo leave the island. Soooo we are left in an awkward position. Did Division 9 not listen to the emperor and just let 935 have Takeo? If so, what happened after that? After Der Riese fell, did they send Takeo BACK to Pohnpei to that cell? It's confusing.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Monopoly Mac

[Stop Mocking Me0]

2 hours ago, Tac said:

 

Not sure if this was there the whole time or not, but he crossed some stuff out and edited it, so it may be updated from the last time you read it. Also, I don't think anyone is arguing it is the same universe. That would be absurd, Simply that things happening in both are largely following the same timeline.

I've been playing Danganronpa 2, as well as Ace Attorney PW all week. Evidence and clarity are ULTRA important to me right now. 

1 hour ago, Monopoly Mac said:

Cool discussion guys. But different universes and stuff aside, just think about it in the context of this ONE universe. In this universe, Richtofen teleports Maxis and Samantha away in Der Riese. And seemingly at the same time, Takeo is prisoner in the Div 9 facility on Pohnpei. BUT, Takeo was at one point in a cryochamber just like Tank Dempsey as we can see in this photo in Der Eisendrache. 

Now the note from the emperor found in Zetsubou says not to let Takeo leave the island. Soooo we are left in an awkward position. Did Division 9 not listen to the emperor and just let 935 have Takeo? If so, what happened after that? After Der Riese fell, did they send Takeo BACK to Pohnpei to that cell? It's confusing.

Now.... This may just be nit-picky... But... Can we say for SURE that takeo is in this picture? I mean it's very clear that the chamber up front is Dempsey, however, behind him we see Nikolai, then two murky tubes with no solid pictures....

 

This alone should raise questions, after all, Richtofen himself wouldn't be in any of the chambers.... So...Who's in the 4th one? I highly doubt it would be Richtofen.... It could be the Mexican Test subject... But that brings me to another question: 

THE LAST TEST SUBJECT THE MEXICAN DIED BUT DURING THE AUTOPSY I HAVE DISCOVERED THE KEY TO CREATE THE UNDEAD ARMY THAT WE SEEK WE ARE NOW READY TO CAPTURE THE FOUR TEST SUBJECTS IDENTIFIED IN REPORT FORTY FOUR

THE LAST TEST SUBJECT the Mexican died.. But during the autopsy I bla bla bla WE ARE NOW READY TO CAPTURE THE FOUR TEST SUBJECTS IDENTIFIED IN REPORT 44. 

So... As we can see... The Mexican test subject... At least in this universe... WAS NOT one of the test subjects captured with the same purpose as the 4 important ones in Report 44.... but then again MORE questions.... Who's #4 if it's not el test subject-o.... Can we be sure that 3 of the 4 test subjects in question are Tank, Nikolai, and Takeo? 

[Tac]

1 hour ago, Stop Mocking Me0 said:

I've been playing Danganronpa 2, as well as Ace Attorney PW all week. Evidence and clarity are ULTRA important to me right now. 

What's your point with this? Those should always should be important...

1 hour ago, Stop Mocking Me0 said:

Who's in the 4th one?

It seems clear that the fourth one is 'Nikolai's brother' in Russia:

Of the four test subjects highlighted in Report 44, one of the brothers has died before we could reach him in the battle. The other is still at large in the city.

[Monopoly Mac]

I've edited the OP with a conclusion I've come up with which I think is the most logical explanation.

[Stop Mocking Me0]

14 minutes ago, Tac said:

What's your point with this? Those should always should be important...

It seems clear that the fourth one is 'Nikolai's brother' in Russia:

Of the four test subjects highlighted in Report 44, one of the brothers has died before we could reach him in the battle. The other is still at large in the city.

-I know, I was confused earlier. That's why I needed clarity. 

-Missed this cipher... So if Nikolai's brother is the 4th test subject, there's still the issue of the contradiction. The 4 originals were Nikolai, Takeo, Tank, and the Mexican. NOW it appears that the Mexican is in another group.... Who else is in this primary group?

[Tac]

4 minutes ago, Stop Mocking Me0 said:

So if Nikolai's brother is the 4th test subject, there's still the issue of the contradiction. The 4 originals were Nikolai, Takeo, Tank, and the Mexican. NOW it appears that the Mexican is in another group.... Who else is in this primary group?

I'm confused where the contradiction lies. We always knew that the Mexican died but never got word of there being four test subjects (assuming there were in that universe). Now, they added a fourth but immediately killed him off, so we're back to the same three.

[Stop Mocking Me0]

The contradiction (which I skipped over saddly :P) was that there are 4 pods in the picture... But only 3 living subjects. Nikolai's brother died, so surely there's no need to put him in the chamber.... So...Who's in the 4th chamber? 

[Monopoly Mac]

There could be no one in the fourth chamber. I don't think we can make out anyone in it.

[tEfugleskremmel]

@Monopoly Mac this makes sense. What the cipher says was that Nikolais brother was killed before they could get to him. So this is clearly before they have anyone in those chambers. What happens following this was the capture of the Mexican to make up for this. Seeing as the 4 pods appear in the DE slideshow, with one seemingly empty, along with photos from his autopsy. I don't think those pods have anything to do with Niks brother as he was never captured, rather it fits within the context of what we see in DE. 

[Stop Mocking Me0]

24 minutes ago, tEfugleskremmel said:

@Monopoly Mac this makes sense. What the cipher says was that Nikolais brother was killed before they could get to him. So this is clearly before they have anyone in those chambers. What happens following this was the capture of the Mexican to make up for this. Seeing as the 4 pods appear in the DE slideshow, with one seemingly empty, along with photos from his autopsy. I don't think those pods have anything to do with Niks brother as he was never captured, rather it fits within the context of what we see in DE. 

Ah, Ah, Ah. 

The Mexican test subject was captured and KILLED before they even set out to find the 4 named in file 44. So they didn't swap out the Mexican test subject for him. 

 

The rest of that fits the bill laid out so far... But I'm not set on that pod being empty... Although it would explain why the last one doesn't appear to have any pipes attached to it...

[tEfugleskremmel]

@Stop Mocking Me0 fair play sir. I had completely forgotten the cipher in DE mentioning this. My bad! 

Well, I'm sticking with there being no one in the fourth pod then. Just a red herring, or where the Mexican was formerly kept. I will continue to look for an explanation though. Can't imagine Treyarch leaving a plot hole like this in. There must be a solution that we either haven't found or hasn't been given to us yet.

[Monopoly Mac]

I kind of thought of it like they prepared four pods for the test subjects but the brother died before they could reach him. So one of them is empty. We didn't know about this brother until the next map, Zetsubou, so in a way Treyarch has given us an answer.