Time between Kino and Ascension

[RadZakpak]

I know it's a bit late and irrelevant to all the Monty/Dark Aether talk going on here, but I want to know your guys' opinion on what exactly went down between Kino and Ascension. Blundell once said that what goes on between maps is as important as what goes on in them.

 

For starters, the crew comes in on a lander, and I doubt the lander was in Germany (Kino) and it had the fuel to get from there to somewhere in the Soviet Union. So all I can think is they teleported somewhere outside Ascension and rode the lander in.

 

But the more puzzling thing is why Richtofen had the space suit. They must have done something right before to warrant him putting it on. A theory I've heard is that the guy on the Ascension poster was going to take Richtofen's place and he wore the suit, and last second they just swapped the heads and recorded his dialogue.

 

What's the consensus on Ascension? To me it always seemed out of place in the story.

[anonymous]

It is indeed still a big mystery, and not only what happened between Kino and Ascension, but also between Shangri La and Moon.
There are multiple things that could be happened, with these 4 of I can think of:

-With the lunar lander in which a game in Ascension starts, however you make a very good point with the fuel. If a lander has to refuel for the few meters it flies in above the cosmodome, a flight from Berlin would be impossible.
-In Kino there is a MTD, a teleporter, on the stage. Though all zombie maps it seems that a MTD teleports to a location near another MTD. And there is one in Ascension, the one the O4 use to travel to Call of the Dead. In Call of the Dead Richthofen still has the Wunderwaffe DG-2, so he has to have it in Kino too (however he doesn't use it). If he overloaded the MTD with the DG-2, the teleporter would sent them though space time itself, and so to Ascension. Here, Richthofen could find a space suit, and use a lander, and then the game starts.
-In both Groom Lake (Moon spawn) and Ascension is a crashed rocket(engine)  noticeable. It could be possible they flew from Kino to Ascension and from Shang to Groom Lake. But then there's the question: Where could there be a rocket Launchpad in a German theatre or in the Hymalayan jungle.
-Last but not least, someone once told me of this one, so I didn’t make this one up myself. On the Moon loading screen you see a handteleporter, a teleported the size of a small stone. Why would it be on the loading screen if it didn’t take a part in the story? It might be Treyarchs explaination of how the O4 travels from map to map.

 

But hey man, I feel ya. In these times when its all about The Apothican, Monty, Primis and the Keepers, all I want is just have a story related talk about the old maps with topics like this
 

[RadZakpak]

The Gersch Device was always how I associated going from Ascension to Call of the Dead, but the handheld teleport theory definitely works. I never noticed that.

 

Also the jump from the 60s (Ascension), to 2010 (CotD) was never really explained. In my headcanon perhaps Richtofen learned how to manually make the MDT usable for time travel after overloading it in Der Riese and ending up at Kino. The other thing I thought is maybe the teleporter malfunctioned, taking Richtofen where he wanted to be (Siberia), but in 2010.

 

There's a lot of gaps and inconsistencies around BO1 that I feel won't be explained but wish they were. At least hopefully the time jumps in BO2 might be explained in the comic, MAYBE.

[anonymous]

Dr. Edward Richtofen:  "Ah, much better, now I can see the problem. We must've gone too far into the future. Look, the teleporter's completely broken! The time circuits are damaged, we'll have to reroute the-"
Tank Dempsey:  "Wait, you took us here on purpose?!  Where are we?"
Dr. Edward Richtofen:  "A better question Dempsey..."

 

That's what you hear in CotD, so I made up from this that they travelled by the MTD

[Rissole25]

I definitely think this will be one of the things explained in the comic, as it does say "see what happens between the maps!".

I have always been confused about the Richtofen costume change though, and why they arrive on the lunar lander. He goes back to his Wehrmacht uniform in Shangri-La, but than dons this costume again in Moon. This actually made people think that Ascension was right before Moon for a while, because in Shangri-La, one of the debris that you can open has a lunar lander, and it's the only one and very out of place. And because his still in his Wehrmacht uniform, it made it strengthened.

As you said, why did they go to Ascension? The only thing that really relates to the main story is Richtofen's uniform (why did he need it? no one else did), the mention of the Casimir Mechanism in the Moon egg (maybe he went their to learn about it? but that's complete conjecture), and that's about it (except for I suppose freeing Gersch so he pops up in Gorod Krovi).

[RadZakpak]

20 minutes ago, Rissole25 said:

As you said, why did they go to Ascension? The only thing that really relates to the main story is Richtofen's uniform (why did he need it? no one else did), the mention of the Casimir Mechanism in the Moon egg (maybe he went their to learn about it? but that's complete conjecture), and that's about it (except for I suppose freeing Gersch so he pops up in Gorod Krovi).

Well from the CotD easter egg dialogue posted earlier in the thread we can gather that Richtofen intended to teleport to the facility in Siberia at some point in the future, and they went too far and were locked in. Perhaps Richtofen intended to ditch the crew in Ascension and take the rocket to Siberia (hence the suit), but either he realized he needed to keep them around OR the rocket was launched, maybe accidentally (Nikolai having one too many?) and so he took the teleporter instead and ended up behind the locked door.

 

Now since the facility was once a Group 935 facility perhaps Richtofen had a change of clothes there or he kept his original clothes with him all this time.

 

 

Something tells me this was all just a loose thread Zielinski never intended to tie up or some sort of oversight. So the real question is how Blundell will/would canonize it, because I'm sure there was never a clear answer at Treyarch.

[anonymous]

If it was a MTD with which he teleported, it could be that he reached Ascension by accident, just like he reached Kino from Der Riese. Since Der Riese, his actual destinations were CotD for the Golden Rod and Shangri La for the focussing stone. But when he arrived in Ascension, he heard Gersch and so he and the crew decided to help him before they teleport away, trying to reach the Siberian Outpost.

If this is all correct, it makes me wonder why you hear Richthofen in the Kino Loading Screen saying: "Where did that little girl disappear too". He knows about Samantha in the MPD and that's why he wants the Golden Rod and Focussing Stone, to replace her and receive her power. Why does he say he doesnt know where she is? Or that entry might took place before Kino and Der Riese.

[RadZakpak]

3 hours ago, anonymous said:

But when he arrived in Ascension, he heard Gersch and so he and the crew decided to help him before they teleport away, trying to reach the Siberian Outpost.

I'm still not entirely convinced Richtofen just wanted to help Gersch out of the kindness of his heart. Maybe the others, but Richtofen had to get something out of it. Like in Shangri-La they only help Brock and Gary to get the Focusing Stone. The only thing I can think is it was to spite Samantha since Gersch was in her control at the time.

 

3 hours ago, anonymous said:

If this is all correct, it makes me wonder why you hear Richthofen in the Kino Loading Screen saying: "Where did that little girl disappear too". He knows about Samantha in the MPD and that's why he wants the Golden Rod and Focussing Stone, to replace her and receive her power. Why does he say he doesnt know where she is? Or that entry might took place before Kino and Der Riese.

Well as far as we know the last time Richtofen saw or heard from Samantha was on Grffin Station efore Groph and Schuster kill Maxis and all hell breaks loose. Most likely the last thing he heard from Griffin Station is everyone dying from the zombies, and perhaps he doesn't know at the time that Samantha took control of the zombies.

 

That is unless there is some Richtofen quote from Shi No Numa or Der Rises mentioning Sam controlling the zombies, in which case, yeah I'm not sure about that quote.

[Rissole25]

At the time I imagine the details on Samantha hadn't been worked out at that point. Looking at it from that point of view, we could just say Richtofen was just playing dumb as the others were nearby while he was recording.

[RadZakpak]

2 minutes ago, Rissole25 said:

At the time I imagine the details on Samantha hadn't been worked out at that point. Looking at it from that point of view, we could just say Richtofen was just playing dumb as the others were nearby while he was recording.

But doesn't he also say he does not trust his unconventional allies, but they are of great use to him? It seems he is implied to be alone.

[Rissole25]

Just now, RadZakpak said:

But doesn't he also say he does not trust his unconventional allies, but they are of great use to him? It seems he is implied to be alone.

But that's exactly why he says it. He's not putting up a front of being trustworthy (they just mindlessly follow him around), but him saying that (and them overhearing it) does show they can work together.

But even if he was alone, it's really the only reasonable explanation you can give for him saying that about Samantha, even though it's clear that Treyarch hadn't thought that far ahead.

[MysteryMachineX]

I believe it is generally accepted that Richtofen's words during the Kino der Toten opening screen are incorrect. Like... literally everything. Almost.

 

"Entry 741021! Perhaps this station will hold the key to the real goals of Group 935. I still do not trust my unconventional allies, but they are of great use to me. But, I digress. Who would've thought the MDT was capable of time travel? How many stations does this Group have? Where did that little girl disappear to? Only time will tell what new questions await us in this theater of the d*mned!"

 

1. Richtofen already knew the goals of Group 935.

2. It is MTD not MDT. Matter Transference Device.

3. He knew it was capable of time travel. That was his theory.

4. He also personally went to many stations. In fact, he set up Shangri-La.

5. Groph told him Samantha was in the MPD.

 

This isn't surprising though, as it was his first time traveling through time. And we have seen people become delusional or even sick from teleporting. So he must've recorded this immediately upon teleporting and was thus delusional at the time.

 

As for Kino > Ascension > Call of the Dead. It's sketchy. If we're told something new I'll reconsider, but this is what we came up with, back in the day: The pocket teleporter (from the loading screen) took them to Ascension, where they then rode a lander, and they used a Gersch Device after helping Gersch, and they were taken to a proper teleporter in the Siberian outpost, but far in the future instead of the proper time Richtofen wanted. They then used that teleporter to go to the ancient one in Shangri-La, and then to the one in Area 51 and then to Griffin Station. Just hopping really. Perhaps the comic will give us better details.

[RadZakpak]

3 hours ago, MysteryMachineX said:

I believe it is generally accepted that Richtofen's words during the Kino der Toten opening screen are incorrect. Like... literally everything. Almost.

The subtitles even misspell his name as Richtofan. This and many other reasons are why Kino is very disappointing in the story department. So many unanswered questions in early Black Ops maps that are never adressed again because tying up loose ends was never the Zielinski way.

[momster]

On 7/23/2016 at 9:33 PM, RadZakpak said:

Well from the CotD easter egg dialogue posted earlier in the thread we can gather that Richtofen intended to teleport to the facility in Siberia at some point in the future, and they went too far and were locked in. Perhaps Richtofen intended to ditch the crew in Ascension and take the rocket to Siberia (hence the suit), but either he realized he needed to keep them around OR the rocket was launched, maybe accidentally (Nikolai having one too many?) and so he took the teleporter instead and ended up behind the locked door.

 

Now since the facility was once a Group 935 facility perhaps Richtofen had a change of clothes there or he kept his original clothes with him all this time.

 

 

Something tells me this was all just a loose thread Zielinski never intended to tie up or some sort of oversight. So the real question is how Blundell will/would canonize it, because I'm sure there was never a clear answer at Treyarch.

 

Perhaps Zielinski was booted from Treyarch and the arrogance of Blundell was simply that he would rewrite it as he pleases. Perhaps, Blundell never cared to inquire into Zielinski's intended direction, but adding multiple universes would be a simple fix - presto! No need to tie story line's together...it was in another universe blah blah blah. How do people reboot things? Was it all a dream (Samantha) or a coma? Or, I KNOW MULTI-UNIVERSE! These are just tricks of an unskilled storyteller.

[AetherialVoices]

On 7/23/2016 at 9:01 PM, Rissole25 said:

I definitely think this will be one of the things explained in the comic, as it does say "see what happens between the maps!".

Are they just doing one story with the comics or several different ones?

[Rissole25]

As far as I know it's meant to be following the TranZit Crew and Richtofen looking for the Kronorium. I think that will be the overarching story across the 6 comics, but we'll get smaller stories in single issues or something, to cover the questions and stuff we don't know yet. @AetherialVoices

[DeathBringerZen]

On 24/07/2016 at 9:23 PM, RadZakpak said:

The subtitles even misspell his name as Richtofan. This and many other reasons are why Kino is very disappointing in the story department. So many unanswered questions in early Black Ops maps that are never adressed again because tying up loose ends was never the Zielinski way.

 

Well it has been widely reported for several years that Kino was intended to be part of a DLC 4 for World at War (and developed by Raven) but was cut due to time constraints and added to BO1 instead so if this was the case then the storyline was already pretty much non-existent and made up by ideas and contributions from users on this very forum so I doubt they (Raven) had very much to work with going into making the map. MMX is right though, the intro definitely contradicts radio messages found in Der Riese unless spoken during a delusional state of mind.

 

On 24/07/2016 at 5:01 AM, Rissole25 said:

I have always been confused about the Richtofen costume change though, and why they arrive on the lunar lander. He goes back to his Wehrmacht uniform in Shangri-La, but than dons this costume again in Moon. This actually made people think that Ascension was right before Moon for a while, because in Shangri-La, one of the debris that you can open has a lunar lander, and it's the only one and very out of place. And because his still in his Wehrmacht uniform, it made it strengthened.

 

The quote from Dempsey after finishing the 'Original Characters Trapped' side quest on Call of the Dead has him saying... "I hope the reward is better than the last time... stupid Gersch!" This means that they had to have went to the cosmodrome first then Siberia.

[Rissole25]

11 hours ago, DeathBringerZen said:

The quote from Dempsey after finishing the 'Original Characters Trapped' side quest on Call of the Dead has him saying... "I hope the reward is better than the last time... stupid Gersch!" This means that they had to have went to the cosmodrome first then Siberia.

Lol yeah I know. It goes in release order, but I can see why people got confused with the whole shebang though.

[AetherialVoices]

On 7/24/2016 at 9:31 AM, MysteryMachineX said:

1. Richtofen already knew the goals of Group 935.

2. It is MTD not MDT. Matter Transference Device.

3. He knew it was capable of time travel. That was his theory.

4. He also personally went to many stations. In fact, he set up Shangri-La.

5. Groph told him Samantha was in the MPD.

1. He said "key to the goals of Group 935". He knew the goals of Group 935, but didn't have the key to achieve them.

2. Seriously, that error drives me insane.

3. Same as 2.

4. At what point was it established that Shangri-La was a 935 facility? I don't recall hearing that before.

5. Has to be that they didn't know where they were going with the story at that point.

 

Most of these could be passed off a bit by saying that he was confused and disoriented from traveling through space and time, but still annoying.

On 7/30/2016 at 8:13 PM, momster said:

Perhaps Zielinski was booted from Treyarch and the arrogance of Blundell was simply that he would rewrite it as he pleases. Perhaps, Blundell never cared to inquire into Zielinski's intended direction, but adding multiple universes would be a simple fix - presto! No need to tie story line's together...it was in another universe blah blah blah. How do people reboot things? Was it all a dream (Samantha) or a coma? Or, I KNOW MULTI-UNIVERSE! These are just tricks of an unskilled storyteller.

I mean, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, to each his own and all that. But, that mini-rant seems a bit excessive. There wasn't a practical way to fix Jimmy Z's contradictions inside of a video game with the storytelling methods that they use. Even if they had managed to come up with an explanation, they would have had to have a whiteboard and a bunch of diagrams for a two-hour video that still wouldn't really "fix" anything. Multiverses can be used as an ingenious storytelling device under good conditions. These conditions are not necessarily good, but they definitely aren't bad. If it was a Bioshock Infinite style multiverse, like the disproven Multiverse Theory, then I would understand the frustration and hate it gets. But it isn't, they have already outlined the multiverse in game, and it is not that bad. I really hate when people make assumptions or generalizations and ignore the evidence against them. Anyway, my criticizing your rant is beginning to turn into one of MY rants, so I'll just end it here.

[anonymous]

I just saw a video in which a "new found Easter egg" in Kino der Toten was found. Im not sure if it is real and/or it is new found, but it went like this: First you put all the film reels in the projector, after that you launch the rocket in the Five room (where you can teleport to), and after that you have a free powerup in every room you teleport to.

 

Now that part with launching the rocket seems interesting to me. I mean, back in those days the process of doing Easter Eggs still made sense. And what is remarkable, is that the O4 laugh that mini-rocket in a room they teleport to, and after that they mysteriously find their selves on a Lunar Lander in a Sovjet cosmodome. Can anyone find logic behind this?

 

And finally, I think the O4 had a reason why they are in Ascension. In the maps CotD and Shangri La, they are there because they need an object (Golden Rod, Focussing Stone) for Richthofen's agenda on Moon. During this Easter Egg, a Casimir Mechanism is also made by Richthofen. Maybe Richthofen took the crew on purpose to Ascension to investigate how the Casimir Mechanism works. Or maybe Richthofen gained the whole idea of his "Grand Scheme" in Ascension, when seeing the Casimir Mechanism.

[RadZakpak]

16 minutes ago, anonymous said:

I just saw a video in which a "new found Easter egg" in Kino der Toten was found. Im not sure if it is real and/or it is new found, but it went like this: First you put all the film reels in the projector, after that you launch the rocket in the Five room (where you can teleport to), and after that you have a free powerup in every room you teleport to.

 

Now that part with launching the rocket seems interesting to me. I mean, back in those days the process of doing Easter Eggs still made sense. And what is remarkable, is that the O4 laugh that mini-rocket in a room they teleport to, and after that they mysteriously find their selves on a Lunar Lander in a Sovjet cosmodome. Can anyone find logic behind this?

 

And finally, I think the O4 had a reason why they are in Ascension. In the maps CotD and Shangri La, they are there because they need an object (Golden Rod, Focussing Stone) for Richthofen's agenda on Moon. During this Easter Egg, a Casimir Mechanism is also made by Richthofen. Maybe Richthofen took the crew on purpose to Ascension to investigate how the Casimir Mechanism works. Or maybe Richthofen gained the whole idea of his "Grand Scheme" in Ascension, when seeing the Casimir Mechanism.

This is a very logical explanation. I think it's possible Richtofen went to Ascension and wore the space suit because he intended to abandon the others there in a rocket to get to Griffin Station. Then perhaps he realized the potential through the Casimir Mechanism and set out to find the Rod and Stone.

[InfestLithium]

10 minutes ago, RadZakpak said:

This is a very logical explanation. I think it's possible Richtofen went to Ascension and wore the space suit because he intended to abandon the others there in a rocket to get to Griffin Station. Then perhaps he realized the potential through the Casimir Mechanism and set out to find the Rod and Stone.

 

The only issue with this is that the Vril Rod and Focusing Stone both were necessary to swap souls with Samantha in the MPD. So even if Richtofen went straight to the Moon from Russia, he would not have the artifacts to complete his mission.

 

I'm on the boat of Richtofen learning what Vril technology was capable of in Kino from Maxis' research. How/why the O4 came to Kino can be questioned, but the voices in Richtofen's head alone couldn't lay out what he needed to do to come into power.

[anonymous]

2 hours ago, RadZakpak said:

I think it's possible Richtofen went to Ascension and wore the space suit because he intended to abandon the others there in a rocket to get to Griffin Station.

Didn't even thought of that. But why would he wanna go to Griffin Station? It was there where the last radio message was made: The one in which Samantha kills all and Maxis dies. The next time we see Richthofen is in Shi No Numa, like he fled from Moon. Why would he go back to the cursed Griffin Station if he just goed it?

2 hours ago, InfestLithium said:

I'm on the boat of Richtofen learning what Vril technology was capable of in Kino from Maxis' research.

What do you mean? Are there Vrill things in Kino? Those aliens-like beings in those cans maybe.

[RadZakpak]

2 hours ago, InfestLithium said:

 

The only issue with this is that the Vril Rod and Focusing Stone both were necessary to swap souls with Samantha in the MPD. So even if Richtofen went straight to the Moon from Russia, he would not have the artifacts to complete his mission.

 

I'm on the boat of Richtofen learning what Vril technology was capable of in Kino from Maxis' research. How/why the O4 came to Kino can be questioned, but the voices in Richtofen's head alone couldn't lay out what he needed to do to come into power.

I get the impression Richtofen knew he would have to get those items only after what he acquires in Der Riese and Kino, but perhaps he only realized he would need these items after he realized Samantha was inside the MPD. I think maybe at Ascension when they save Gersch, Richtofen puts the pieces together and realizes Samantha is inside the MPD, and thus must find these items. Based on Moon radios it seems like Richtofen was fully prepared to enter the MPD after getting rid of Sam and Maxis, as Groph says the machine is humming nicely and they are waiting for him to arrive.

 

So basically his plan was to get back to Griffin Station and enter the MPD as planned, but upon realizing in Ascension that Sam was inside, he knew he had to take a detour to find the items and switch bodies with her if he was going to enter the MPD now. Becuase if we think about it, the Vril Devices and Focusing Stone help Richtofen switch bodies, not necessarily enter the MPD. Entering it was so easy apparently that Samantha did it on accident.

[Slade]

On 23-7-2016 at 3:48 PM, RadZakpak said:

For starters, the crew comes in on a lander, and I doubt the lander was in Germany (Kino) and it had the fuel to get from there to somewhere in the Soviet Union.

Pretty sure the Lander entrance was mostly a gameplay decision, and that there's no real story element behind it. You enter the launch site riding the lander, then the color goes away. Pretty badass intro.

 

On 24-7-2016 at 6:31 PM, MysteryMachineX said:

"Entry 741021! Perhaps this station will hold the key to the real goals of Group 935. I still do not trust my unconventional allies, but they are of great use to me. But, I digress. Who would've thought the MDT was capable of time travel? How many stations does this Group have? Where did that little girl disappear to? Only time will tell what new questions await us in this theater of the d*mned!"

The only way I can even try to make some sort of sense out of this (ignoring the obvious that it's just horrible last second writing. I mean Richtofen doesn't know where Samantha disappeared to because at the time of Kino's release we didn't know where she went to because Moon's story hadn't been written yet but I digress) is that either 

a) Some other multi-uni-whatever-verse Richtofen recorded this audio and due to some interdimension altermanipulation 115 override something magic mumbo jumbo that recording made its way to the original O4's universe.

or

b) Richtofen's insane.