When should Treyarch zombies end/have ended?

[Lenne]

(Specifically talking about the Aether story stuff and it's maps.)

 

Hello everyone, I hope you are having a good evening, day, night, morning, spleen and life right now.

 

I had this thought in the past couple of weeks. It was about what I would do, when I were in Jimmy Z's or Jason B's shoes or had something to say at Treyarch in general. Specifically about when I would have ended the Aether story. Treyarch said a bunch of times now, that they want to be done with the story at the end of Black Ops 4, but truth be told, I don't quite trust them on that.

 

So I started to think when I would have called it a day. Just from a pure emotional standpoint of course, cause as long as the thing would grand me like a bazillion moneys. I'd probably go on for ever as well, or maybe not... I dunno, that is a question for another day.

 

In my opinion the mode should have ended with Black Ops II. I know a bunch of you probably would have expected the original Black Ops as an answer from me, but truth be told I just adore Origins way too much to not have it in my life. haha From a pure story perspective I would have definitely picked Black Ops 1 though, cause for me personally it lost a majority of it's appeal. I still love reading Rad's storybook and all of your theories, but the story itself lost me on Black Ops 2.

 

So what would you have done? End it with WaW? Or Black Ops 3, 4, 5, 6, 7? (God knows when Treyarch still has or wants to keep the sub brand alive after 4 I seriously will flip my pancakes.)

 

That is it. Short and spicy, as usual, from your friendly Lenne, who loves you very much.

 

[anonymous]

I agree the BO2 maps didn't made sense to us, but upon reading Cal's recent comment about the studio's meaning behind the maps my interest in these maps was totally revived (though, honestly, it never was gone). Buried and Moon taking place at the same time in Prehistory. Tranzit and Die Rise taking place in distinct time pockets. Hell, even a good, sort-of-explainanation of the Earth flipping after the rockets impact. I like how the studio tried to develop a bit more science behind the Aether, Ethereal Energy, time travel and utilities of 115 (espessially in Buried). It might be a bit complex, but really, it is there. 

 

In my opinion, Treyarch should've this story, limiting itself to one universe (through different times). Unlike many others, I found Zielinski's last maps (Tranzit, Die Rise and Buried) all featuring very unique and fun game elements, and the atmosphere was a combination of horror and goofy (just like you, @The Meh). Next to his, new gamemodes and small survival maps were upcoming. Story-wise, the universe could've continue with stories of survivors fighting the undead in all kinds of eras and settings, as Earth is destroyed in all of history. In BO1, the Illuminati had its influence in almost every Cold War map, and I could see some sort of continuation of a secret society who predicted the End of the World, establishing power after Earth's destruction. Maybe even a return of the renmants of (Moon-)Nazi's or Group 935, to feed the conspiracy theme. Something behind the Russian influence in Griffin Station and Green Run. Ultimis could continue, to destroy them, like Takeo said at the end of Moon.

 

Story-wise, I dont think they should've ended it anytime, just not doing the whole stuff that started in Mob and Origins, which became worse once Fractures became the lazy explanation of everything, and which was pretty much destroyed when the Timeline was released. Gameplay-wise, I enjoyed every bit of BO3.

 

Die Milz ist mein lieblingsorgan

[RadZakpak]

Personally I've liked every direction they've gone, and there hasn't really been a satisfying ending in Treyarch Zombies history, besides, like, Ancient Evil. But in terms of Aether, I think the only place I would have been okay with it ending would have been Buried, with Mob being the kicking off point for a new storyline ala Chaos in BO4. But even then, I think Buried would have been a horribly unsatisfying place to end it all, it's just the one that I could justify the best.

 

In an ideal world, I think BO4 should have gotten maybe one or two more Aether maps to properly set up the finale, but hey, this is as good a place to end it all as any.

 

I don't think I share the same opinion with many people here that Zombies should stick to one overall theme, because I think the beauty of it is just how different every experience is from the last. It's the only story I know that can incorporate Nazi Conspiracies, time travel, Lovecraftian monsters, etc. all into a single storyline, filled with horror, humor, and human drama. I think we take for granted there is truly nothing like it, and when it is over there probably will never be anything quite so unique. For all the highs and lows, the tears and the laughs, I will cherish it forever.

 

Quote

"I would not change a single thing." - Edward Richtofen

 

[Inconcievable]

BOII is a good ending for the simpler reasons it provides - it all was a children’s game.

 

But BO3? Storybook. I almost would have preferred it if they capped it off at Revelations. At least would have saved them some dignity at the end. Given the BO4 season and all...

[Electric Jesus]

Honestly, the way Treyarch ends each zombies season is pretty much the same. It reminds me of when a show gets picked up by a network, so they write a full season, but they don’t know until it airs whether or not there’s going to be a season 2. So they end up having to make the season 1 finale something “reasonably conclusive” so that it’s a satisfying ending in case they don’t get another season, while still leaving it open for continuation. 

 

So like, at the end of Moon everyone thought the story was over. Oh snap, no more earth. But then woop nope, we didn’t destroy the ENTIRE earth.

 

Then origins came around, and we were like “oh snap, we were all dolls, the story is just in a kid’s mind, the story’s over.” Then it turns out that’s not the case.

 

then Revelations rolls around and we literally see the title card “The End.” And it was kinda marketed as the end of zombies. 

 

Then lo and behold, aether continued. 

 

I genuinely think that like, on the back end of things, Treyarch are pretty much obligated to soft-end the story every single time, and they end up having to make the story larger the next year to re-contextualize that “ending” to continue the story. 

 

 

[Hells Warrrior]

BOII, after that they just got it all wrong.

[83457]

Ah, story. I thought we were discussing the zombies game mode, not story, when I saw this in my email.

 

I've never given even the first shit about 'the story', forget giving 2 shits about it. Haha.

 

So, I'll back out slowly after this comment: Zombies was fun to play, now it is not. That is my only concern.

 

Bring back core zombies: camping, and teamplay. Ditch the knockoff zombies and 'always running' that made us all run away.

 

We did 'always running' and it got stale long ago, now make it fun again.

 

/I feel like a skipping record. Sigh.

[ZombiesAteMyPizza!]

2 hours ago, 83457 said:

Ah, story. I thought we were discussing the zombies game mode, not story, when I saw this in my email.

 

I've never given even the first shit about 'the story', forget giving 2 shits about it. Haha.

 

So, I'll back out slowly after this comment: Zombies was fun to play, now it is not. That is my only concern.

 

Bring back core zombies: camping, and teamplay. Ditch the knockoff zombies and 'always running' that made us all run away.

 

We did 'always running' and it got stale long ago, now make it fun again.

 

/I feel like a skipping record. Sigh.

Yeah, without wanting to sound like an old fart I miss the old days of BO1 and W@W. The zombies mode was simple, just get tooled up and kill zombies in new and interesting environments. The story was about a Nazi group that did experiments on soldiers and created zombies, which all got far-fetched enough by Moon anyway. Then come BO3 aliens are thrown into the mix and it was just fucking stupid, the zombies are now an afterthought. The maps are hit and miss whereas in the first couple of games, I genuinely enjoyed every map.

[Lenne]

13 hours ago, 83457 said:

Ah, story. I thought we were discussing the zombies game mode, not story, when I saw this in my email.

Wait what? I never said this topic was just about the story. Like I said in my original post: Gameplay wise I would have quit after Origins and story wise after Moon. 

 

You should me know better by now than to assume I'd make a topic strictly about the story of this mode.

 

Edit: I should have worded the disclaimer better. What I meant was, to not include the chaos story. Just the Aether stuff both gameplay and story related.

 

Edit 2: @Hells Warrrior They didn't get it all wrong with 3. For me personally Der Eisendrache, Shadows and the majority of chronicles was good, but the bad definitely outweight the good, which is why I agree with you on ending it with BO II.

[Spider3000]

Black Ops III. I would’ve said Black Ops II, but I’m such a big fan of the character development that Primis received and the journey they went on, that I would’ve rathered the story end at 3.

[Hells Warrrior]

14 hours ago, Lenne said:

Edit 2: @Hells Warrrior They didn't get it all wrong with 3. For me personally Der Eisendrache,

DE has been the only map I’ve really played, it was good. The rest, touch n go. 

[Inconcievable]

On 8/8/2019 at 5:02 PM, Hells Warrrior said:

BOII, after that they just got it all wrong.

I understand we might have talked shortly about it, but BO3 didn’t have all too much bad. DE and GK were quite alright, and Zombies Chronicles is a 10/10 thing.

[ZombiesAteMyPizza!]

On 8/9/2019 at 7:41 AM, Lenne said:

Wait what? I never said this topic was just about the story. Like I said in my original post: Gameplay wise I would have quit after Origins and story wise after Moon. 

 

You should me know better by now than to assume I'd make a topic strictly about the story of this mode.

 

Edit: I should have worded the disclaimer better. What I meant was, to not include the chaos story. Just the Aether stuff both gameplay and story related.

 

Edit 2: @Hells Warrrior They didn't get it all wrong with 3. For me personally Der Eisendrache, Shadows and the majority of chronicles was good, but the bad definitely outweight the good, which is why I agree with you on ending it with BO II.

Yeah, I also loved Eisendrache, also really liked Rev which I know isn't a popular opinion. Obviously Chronicles was incredible, I loved the different spin on things that the new features brought. Tbh though even BO2 I didn't like, thought most of the maps were pretty terrible and Origins is overrated AF.

[Lenne]

9 hours ago, ZombiesAteMyPizza! said:

and Origins is overrated AF

You wanna start a fight, mate?!

Nah seriously, on paper I should hate Origins as well and I did for a year or two after it's release, but once I got into it and got done with setting up I loved every single round I played. Origins, a bit of Mob of the Dead and Nuketown are the reason why I would have quit with BO II. If those maps weren't in there, then I would have said, yeah let's end it with moon from a gameplay perspective as well.

 

Grüßli

[NaBrZHunter]

Way to go, @Lenne. This thread feels like the old days. Hot topic, yeeooow!

It's crazy, I don't think ANYONE in this thread agrees except maybe @83457 and @ZombiesAteMyPizza!. LOL!

I figured maybe someone would take my stance, already, but I didn't see anyone do that - so here goes!

 

As far as story, WAW -> BO1 was nearly flawless, with the exception of some graphical issues. Gameplay was great, especially in BO1.

BO2, gameplay hit the skids (geez, knifing alone is a perfect example - knifing a zombie felt like trying to stab a moving metal pillar covered in oil), but the story had excellent potential. Buried, however, was a shitshow for story crashing the potential of the previous two maps facefirst into the earth; yet ironically, it is considered the best Victis map. It's as if story and gameplay couldn't coexist after BO1.

Then came Origins. I had to delete my initial description. As great of a map as it was for gameplay, and as awesome as its atmosphere was, it sent the story spiraling in a direction so uncalled-for as to be mindboggling. 
 

 

Don't get me started about Mob of the Dead.

Black Ops 3 was about repairing damage both literally and narratively. If Origins had never happened, Black Ops 3 need never have happened at all. It was a shim to prop up a Leaning Tower of Babel.

 

Black Ops 4 - hear me out, fellow old timers - is an overdue return to form. Ignore the Chaos story. As far as casual gameplay (I can't speak much for high rounds), Classified and Alpha Omega are some of the most accessible maps of all time. As far as story, the writing, acting, and insertion of plot points has been stellar.

So where should it end? It shouldn't. Not yet. But it should have looked like:

 

World at War

Black Ops 1

Tranzit

Die Rise

Something other than Buried, have mercy

Classified

Alpha Omega

The Fall of the Siberia Facility

 

Coming 2020:

MIA (the Broken Arrow hunt for Peter McCain's remains, set in Manchuria @Tac)

The Flesh (Uhuh)

Takeo's Revenge

 

What other storylines has Treyarch dropped like a hot potato? YEEEEOW!

 

Thank you for coming to my Tedd Talk.

 

 

 

[83457]

37 minutes ago, NaBrZHunter said:

Gameplay was great, especially in BO1.

BO2, gameplay hit the skids (geez, knifing alone is a perfect example - knifing a zombie felt like trying to stab a moving metal pillar covered in oil

Odd. On xb, BO 1 had the most atrocious stabbing issues for me. The bowie/sickle always locked on to the second or third zombie in a group, so that when you stabbed the front zombie, he took no damage at all, despite jamming a knife in his chest with a bloody stream coming out.

 

This was constant, not an intermittant bug. All my zombie buddies experienced the same.

 

After Bad Ops Fail, Bad Ops 1 was the worst of zombies for me. Exciting and new at first, but then it was just annoying. Moon anyone? At least the BO3 version was worthy. (Shrug).

 

[NaBrZHunter]

10 minutes ago, 83457 said:

 

Odd. On xb, BO 1 had the most atrocious stabbing issues for me. The bowie/sickle always locked on to the second or third zombie in a group, so that when you stabbed the front zombie, he took no damage at all, despite jamming a knife in his chest with a bloody stream coming out.

 

This was constant, not an intermittant bug. All my zombie buddies experienced the same.

 

After Bad Ops Fail, Bad Ops 1 was the worst of zombies for me. Exciting and new at first, but then it was just annoying. Moon anyone? At least the BO3 version was worthy. (Shrug).

 

I know what you’re talking about - I can’t say I remember it happening that often, though. Definitely a grabby lunge, though, and getting windmilled sucked. Honestly, stabbing in WAW-BO2 was pretty bad. BO2 and WAW were the worst, but BO4 has pretty much accomplished the greatest stabbing animation to date. It’s perfection. 

Moon, though...yes, please. Any day of the week. XD My favorite map to date. Not sure if the Chronicles release has even surpassed it for me yet, though it’s truly a thing of beauty. 

[Lenne]

On 8/9/2019 at 8:52 PM, Spider3000 said:

Black Ops III. I would’ve said Black Ops II, but I’m such a big fan of the character development that Primis received and the journey they went on, that I would’ve rathered the story end at 3.

Serious question, cause I've read this a lot throughout the years: What character development did Primis receive and what did you like so much about it?

I have my own opinion on this, but wanted to read yours first, blue Spiderooooo.

Thank you for making me giggle, @NaBrZHunter . haha

 

Grüßli

[Spider3000]

12 hours ago, Lenne said:

Serious question, cause I've read this a lot throughout the years: What character development did Primis receive and what did you like so much about it?

Let’s take Primis Richtofen for instance, because he happens to be my favourite. Like he says, he “has been trying so very hard to do the right thing.” From what we see of the multiverse, most Richtofen’s happen to be conniving and evil, but Primis Richtofen is an exception to this, “I was the nicest one.”   He wants to find his redemption and put the universe right. He also wants to earn his comrades trust, but throughout the BOIII DLC season they have an uneasy alliance. He keeps info from the rest of the crew, but only because he feels it is for the best even it may not be (Not telling Takeo about the Emperor’s betrayal of him). When the rest of Primis kill their alternate selves, they become more understanding of Richtofen, as he has helped them gain some sense of closure or peace. They start to see that Richtofen does genuinely want to help purge the multiverse of the Apothicons and the undead, so he gains their trust (perhaps with the exception of Nikolai). They may have even gotten off lightly compared to Richtofen, as we have hints in Alpha Omega that he had to kill a child version of himself in order to capture his soul. 

 

But ultimately, Richtofen has a greater desire than saving the universe, and that’s preserving himself. He has an innate fear of death, and so help perpetuates the cycle we’ve seen throughout the course of Black Ops III. Yes, Revelations ends with Primis finally purging the Apothicons from Monty’s perfect world, and yes when they are transported back in time, Primis do win the Great War. But it’s not a permanent solution. Group 935 will still discover Pablo Marinus’ journal, they’ll still unearth the Templar undead contained within a French excavation site, and the universe will still shatter into pieces causing the destruction of multiple worlds and the suffering of countless innocents. Richtofen is happy to keep this cycle going even if it is the equivalent of putting a band aid on the situation because it means he gets to live. Ultimately he’s selfish, but in a very different way to his counterparts. He doesn’t want global domination, he just has a very simple and human fear of death.

 

Now, I don’t think the other three are as layered as Richtofen, but they still received a lot of development especially in comparison to their Ultimis selves. Nikolai has deluded himself into believing he has had multiple marriages, after the devastating death of his own wife. Takeo desires nothing more than to preserve his honour and dedicate himself to his nation and Emperor, even though he is completely blinded by the Emperor’s disdain for him. Dempsey is a lot more sophisticated and mature, and is willing go to the end of the line to complete his mission and his orders. 

 

So as you might be able to tell I like these characters a lot. 

I can understand that some people prefer Ultimis more though. They were definitely more wacky and in line with the over the top humour of Black Ops 1, so I can get that. I will say I’m a fan of their development in Black Ops 4 though, even if it feels a bit inconsistent with how they acted in Black Ops 1. (Dempsey acting mildly annoyed that all their work in the Moon Egg only resulted in destroying the world vs. incoherently rambling and being distressed about these events in Classified) I guess you can write it off as the brain washing easing off on them, as they start to get their memories back, but eh it still feels a bit jarring IMO.

 

So yeah, I hope I’ve explained adequately exactly why Primis resonate with me as well as they do. I’d love to hear your own thoughts on them as characters.

[Lenne]

9 hours ago, Spider3000 said:

So yeah, I hope I’ve explained adequately exactly why Primis resonate with me as well as they do. I’d love to hear your own thoughts on them as characters.

Truth be told I cared very little for them and it feels like I still do, of course they had their moments, like Nikolai in Gorod Krovi, but in my opinion these cutscenes and twists and turns feel very forced. I get why Treyarch did that, cause having Ultimis, while I love them very dearly, as the main characters for 4 games straight would have been way too much, regardless of how funny the jokes could have been.

 

I would like to bring these two examples to the table: One is a meme I saw back when Der Eisendrache was solved and the cutscene was online. I can't find it right now, but it was basically a Titanic (The movie) Pic which said "when girls cried" and on the other half was Dempsey turning off the machine keeping one of his Ultimis counter parts alive, which said "when men cried" or something along those lines. It got tons of upvotes and comments saying how sad it was etc. etc. Which I truly didn't get and still don't get. I will explain one of the reasons why at the end of this post, but one other reason for me is that we knew what we had to do, from the beginning of The Giant.

 

It worked out with Primis Eddy killing Ultimis Deutschmann, but only because it was a surprise, for me at least and I was actually a bit sad, cause of Ultimis Richtofen dying, but after that we all knew what was going to happen in the next three maps.

 

The other example is the ZNS intro cutscene, specifically the shot in which the group save the summoning Stone from falling into the water, I remember lots of people saying something along the lines of: "They are a proper team now, they gained each others trust and now they are working together, that is so awesome." Again that is something that just felt forced and not natural to me.

 

Of course now one could say: But Lenne, just fill in the time between the maps!" Kinda like we have to imagine them actually doing and talking (about) stuff, which actually makes them trust each other and what not. But I'd be like it's all or nothing. Either you show us more stuff (with more cutscenes for example) or you just keep it in the style of pre Origins where there wasn't a cutscene or two attatched to every map. And we all had to fill in the blanks.

 

Okay now to my explanation of my main reason why I didn't care for most of the BO III story points. Somebody correct me, if I am wrong. There are literally an infinite amount of these characters running around and it feels like either I am missing the point or most of the other fanbase does and usually I'd say I am missing the point, but with this I am not so certain. In BotD so many people were gutted about how that primis Richtofen was dying and why he was etc. And then I see a tweet from Waffles, shortly before AO dropped asking how many primis Richtofen are there. Or something like that, I don't remember how exactly he worded it and I thought to myself, well an infinite amount.

 

Of course Milo is like 500 x smarter than me, so I am probably just having a wrong view of these things.

 

One more thing which is a bit off topic in this off topic chat we got going here: I blame Treyarch for that: They introduce the multiverse and all these different timelines, but they do almost nothing with it. Like where is the female version of Takeo killing zombies wearing a kimono and ofering sushi? Or the version of Ultimis Dempsey actually liking Richtofen... you know what I am getting at, right?

 

Or I am just dead inside and don't have as big of a heart I always thought I had. haha

 

Thank you for your fun write up and your opinion. Always appreciated.

Grüßli

[NaBrZHunter]

20 hours ago, Spider3000 said:

So as you might be able to tell I like these characters a lot. 

I can understand that some people prefer Ultimis more though. They were definitely more wacky and in line with the over the top humour of Black Ops 1, so I can get that. I will say I’m a fan of their development in Black Ops 4 though, even if it feels a bit inconsistent with how they acted in Black Ops 1.

I think this is where most people fail to see it the same way I always have. One of the biggest things that looped me into the Aether story from all the way back in WAW was the false front it wore. The characters were slaphappy and goofy; Sam was batshit crazy and evil, but under the stairs at Der Reise, someone was weeping. Someone hung themselves in an office...only their feet were visible. A bloody teddybear haunted the facility. Richtofen was maniacal as a playable character,  but when you discovered the radios, you heard an entirely different man in the recordings, and questions were raised. What happened to Richtofen? Why is he suddenly a psychopath AKA "The Butcher?" What happened to Sam? She didn't deserve this. Why did Nikolai seem sad and lonely somehow? Dempsey never got to go home again; Takeo was fighting for honor, waging a lonely war, serving his beloved emperor, who would never see or appreciate him.
It was that subtlety of story that grabbed me and keeps me around. I feel like it wasn't entirely lost in BO4, but again we haven't had much chance to see more of it be developed. 
Though I would point to a quote by Nikolai about always getting abandoned, "it is old tradition," he says. It brings to mind, as things often do, his fate in the original Der Riese trailer. Really sad...

10 hours ago, Lenne said:

I would like to bring these two examples to the table: One is a meme I saw back when Der Eisendrache was solved and the cutscene was online. I can't find it right now, but it was basically a Titanic (The movie) Pic which said "when girls cried" and on the other half was Dempsey turning off the machine keeping one of his Ultimis counter parts alive, which said "when men cried" or something along those lines. It got tons of upvotes and comments saying how sad it was etc. etc. Which I truly didn't get and still don't get. I will explain one of the reasons why at the end of this post, but one other reason for me is that we knew what we had to do, from the beginning of The Giant.

 

It worked out with Primis Eddy killing Ultimis Deutschmann, but only because it was a surprise, for me at least and I was actually a bit sad, cause of Ultimis Richtofen dying, but after that we all knew what was going to happen in the next three maps.

 

Okay now to my explanation of my main reason why I didn't care for most of the BO III story points. Somebody correct me, if I am wrong. There are literally an infinite amount of these characters running around and it feels like either I am missing the point or most of the other fanbase does and usually I'd say I am missing the point, but with this I am not so certain. In BotD so many people were gutted about how that primis Richtofen was dying and why he was etc. And then I see a tweet from Waffles, shortly before AO dropped asking how many primis Richtofen are there. Or something like that, I don't remember how exactly he worded it and I thought to myself, well an infinite amount.

I was so so saddened by the first look at The Giant, and by the time Dempsey died, I think I still hadn't accepted the multiverse. But I'm with you - there are a hundred million of these characters. Why should I care?  The multiverse robbed BO3 of its impact.

[RadZakpak]

47 minutes ago, NaBrZHunter said:

 

I was so so saddened by the first look at The Giant, and by the time Dempsey died, I think I still hadn't accepted the multiverse. But I'm with you - there are a hundred million of these characters. Why should I care?  The multiverse robbed BO3 of its impact.

This is where I have to disagree. Just because there are a near infinite amount of Dempseys dying doesn’t make the trauma he endures or the emotions you felt watching the first time invalid or less impactful.

 

Tens of billions of people have died throughout human history and yet we mourn the loss of one. Even Great Great Great Uncle Joe who died in 1812 had a story and people affected by him and his death. When your dog dies, it shouldn’t matter. You can get as many new dogs as you want, name them the same thing, treat them the same, but the experience you had with that one is special. Not in the grand scheme of things, but to you personally.

 

That is why I love BO3: the plot is grand and impacts every being throughout history, but it focuses on the little stories as well: the people. Nikolai may die billions of times, but that one that you saw die your first time watching... he really felt that pain and you were emotional with him.

 

That’s just my take on it. That’s why I don’t get the sentiment of new ruining the old. Nothing will take away that first experience from you except death. Regardless if there are infinite universes and Richtofens, or just one, that death is just as meaningless ultimately. But humans have a way of assigning meaning and emotion where there is none. That is the human experience.