The Giant is the map that indicates the Cycle is broken.

[clueless]

(Reposting here because I accidentally posted it under Research and Development thinking it was the proper spot of Asylum and don't see a way to transfer it from there to here.)

 

As we all know, there's plenty of mystery surrounding The Giant, especially regarding the weird radios, Maxis doing the Hide-and-Seek, and Icarus being on the roof of the building behind the power switch.  This time a question might actually have the simplest answer. During the climax of Mob of the Dead, the souls (JUST the souls) of the prisoners are transported to the Golden Gate Bridge. But this time, the plane doesn't crash because Weasel meant to bring them here. So what happens to the plane? Well, if the Cycle Continues, the purgatory Hell dimension does a "soft reset" that returns everything back to its former spot. The only ones with memories are the Warden and Weasel (something I have yet to understand why, maybe the Shadowman's doing?). But eventually, the Weasel does win. It's the cause of the bigger Cycle breaking, so it has to happen. And when it does, the "soft reset" doesn't happen. So Icarus, flying through the sky, eventually flies through the storms overhead. In Zetsubou no Shima we get a glimpse of what such storms can do; temporal displacement.

 

In a Complete Cycle, Icarus never makes it far enough to reach the storms, but in a Broken Cycle it reaches these storms and flies on a whim to our familiar facility. The marks not only the beginning of our journey with the Summoning Key, but also the end.

[NaBrZHunter]

Thanks, @clueless, I've deleted the R&D version! Feel free to hit up the staff anytime you want a post relocated, especially if it has replies you want to keep.

[clueless]

Thank you!

[RichKiller]

2 hours ago, clueless said:

As we all know, there's plenty of mystery surrounding The Giant, especially regarding the weird radios, Maxis doing the Hide-and-Seek, and Icarus being on the roof of the building behind the power switch. 

I think a good place to start with in The Giant, is to understand that the Primis crew suffer from significant Memory problems when they arrive the map. 
 

Quote

Curse this confusion! I must remember my mission. Why am I here? The enemy war machine must be destroyed.

Quote

Infestation confirmed. Positive identification of 115 on site. As expected, my memory's slipping. Unable to determine current jump count to this location. Two at least, maybe more.

Next step would be to understand that Primis arrive to actually stop Primis Richtofen:
We cannot forget.mp3
KindaLate.mp3
 

Quote

MAXIS! No... wait... Compose yourself, Edward. Mission... accomplished. Temporal disruption achieved. The future is changed!

The giant holds many secrets...

[RadZakpak]

This is a really neat idea, and Icarus being there has always bugged me because I could never quite pin it down. I'd like to see this expanded with more evidence in the future.

[anonymous]

Now this is mindblowing, brains to you! Indeed, one would think that if the Mob cycle (and thereby the 'Big cycle') resets, the components of Icarus would respawn back in Alcatraz, which is clearly not the case at the Giant. What is weird though, is that we can see the Icarus in a variety of BO3 maps that take place during the Cycle. Anyway, that could be explained by mere opening up of portals and tears between the universes and fractures. 

 

Yo @RichKiller be wary for the following spoilers of Tag's ending!

 

The Giant is a weird map. I believe it was @caljitsu who also noted the following: During the Tag der Toten Quest, taking place when the Cycle is broken, there is a campfire quote of Richthofen saying that Samantha promised him something long ago, and that her dad had a plan. This of course refers to the Origins cutscene, where Samantha promises Eddy that next time, he can make the rules of the toy game, and that she says, upon going to the basement, that her father has a plan. What this means for the grander scheme of things in our story, I am unsure of, but instantly after Campfire Richthofen mentions these memories, Nikolai says: "Look, the lighthouse beam!". 

 

In the Giant, upon completing the Flytrap Easter Egg, an audio of Doctor Maxis will play, saying: "I see it! The Beacon is lit! I know where you are. Sooner or later, I will find you and will secure a better tomorrow for the children." Now we always assumed that this 'beacon' would refer to the Flytrap itself, but what if it actually is about the Lighthouse at Tunguska? Maxis even forecasts the ending of Tag with his "I will find you and secure a better tomorrow for the children".

 

Is this more evidence for The Giant, just like Tag der Toten, happening outside the Cycle (and at the same time marking the spot from where Primis' Cycle voyage starts?)

[RichKiller]

3 hours ago, anonymous said:

In the Giant, upon completing the Flytrap Easter Egg, an audio of Doctor Maxis will play, saying: "I see it! The Beacon is lit! I know where you are. Sooner or later, I will find you and will secure a better tomorrow for the children." Now we always assumed that this 'beacon' would refer to the Flytrap itself, but what if it actually is about the Lighthouse at Tunguska? Maxis even forecasts the ending of Tag with his "I will find you and secure a better tomorrow for the children".

You can't explain The Giant (and a lot of other foreshadowing hints) and Tag at the same time. Sorry =(
The Giant was planned alongside more relevant events, specifically the end of the cycle itself (for example, paradoxical prologue), which we never got to see. 
The devs made a conscious choice to cut the chase and head towards the end of the story, which means the cycle must end as quickly as possible. 
The beacon is the grenade from Origins. You can't understand the cycle without understanding this, at least the vision they had for the cycle when they wrote The Giant. 

https://imgur.com/a/2Mq6JgT (seperate link)

 

 

LiveLongEnough.mp3

 

PerhapsNow.mp3

 

BuyEnoughTime.mp3

 

Quote

Follow my words: I will find you. When you release the beacon, I will secure your extraction and destroy the site. Remember, the burden is yours to carry Edward. The others must never know the truth.

BurdonOnHisSoul.mp3
 

Quote

Perhaps one day the others will come to understand the sacrifices I've made for them... Perhaps not... 

Perhaps one day.... 

 

[clueless]

I'm going to be quite honest, this is my first time hearing most of what you've brought up @RichKillerso it seems I have a LOT to catch up on, and thank you for the sources so I can look through it all!

[NaBrZHunter]

59 minutes ago, RichKiller said:

You can't explain The Giant (and a lot of other foreshadowing hints) and Tag at the same time. Sorry =(

I would have to heartily disagree on this. Recent developments are highly in favor of the possibility.

[RichKiller]

3 minutes ago, NaBrZHunter said:

Recent developments are highly in favor of the possibility.

Not sure what's that supposed to mean. If you refer to BOTD, the cycle was never linear in its heart. It's very evident by this radio as well.

Quote

Hey other me, if you're hearing this, then it means something's gone FUBAR . We're going to Plan B. Stick to that kraut bastard like glue. We need to find out what the hell he has been doing, what he's going to do. We may be able to get a fix on your location if you can trigger one of the paradox visualizations. Good luck, we're all counting on you. Oh, wait, what ever you do, don't get too close to the radioactive beacon. Makes your hair fall out.

 

[NaBrZHunter]

Sounds like there's some missing information here. Let's take this back to the discord to hammer out where we stand based on what we know and then return here for more in-depth breakdowns of our positions

[clueless]

@NaBrZHunter I know that was meant for RichKiller but I tried going onto the Discord last night and it only showed an error message saying the invitation expired, is there any way around that or a way to fix it?

[Rapt]

It's important to remember what Primis are wearing throughout Bo3.
Takeo has flying goggles around his neck.
Nikolai has a flight cap on.
Tank is wearing a bomber jacket.

Seems likely it is Primis (minus Richtofen) who arrive at TG on the plane.
We know they go to Alcatraz post-Zet. Is very possible they take the plane from there back to TG.
Probably in one of the previous cycles we see in the Music Videos / Origins Recap etc.



 

[anonymous]

11 minutes ago, Rapt said:

It's important to remember what Primis are wearing throughout Bo3.
Takeo has flying goggles around his neck.
Nikolai has a flight cap on.
Tank is wearing a bomber jacket.

Seems likely it is Primis (minus Richtofen) who arrive at TG on the plane.
We know they go to Alcatraz post-Zet. Is very possible they take the plane from there back to TG.
Probably in one of the previous cycles we see in the Music Videos / Origins Recap etc.



 

We know Great War Richtofen appears when the Cycle is broken, abandoning the original Primis Richtofen. Do you think that in case of a continued Cycle, Primis Nikolai, Takeo and Dempsey would also abandon Primis Richtofen in case they would build Icarus?

 

Btw I started watching the music videos of BO3 maps today. Lot's of weird and juicy stuff in it. All animated without apoearing in-game or in cutscenes, so I guess it does hold relevance.

[Rapt]

I'm more of the opinion that Icarus was flown from Alcatraz during BO3 to trick Monty about the order of events.
I think it's Dempsy who calls their trip after Zet a "whistle stop tour of some other locations".
It's possible they took portals, but judging by the chronicles timeline Monty can see when this happens.
I think it's risky to get tied up thinking about the MOTD cycle when thinking about Icarus from BO3.
They separated BOTD into another COD title intentionally.
I think the Icarus within BO3 was flown during BO3 if that makes sense.
For the following reason...

Each games crew should only be able to  change history once before they reach Rev and get reset into a new cycle (new game essentially).
In the YT videos we see DE happen before Shadows... (Origins recap, summoning key is not glowing)
We also see the crew meeting OG Takeo inside the Zetsubo complex and various other events which contradict the cutscenes. (Zetsubo trailer etc)

So canonically these videos imply one of three things.
1. Either the ingame cutscenes are bs and never happen.
2. Or there are multiple versions of BO3 Primis (I don't like this)
3. Primis replay DE, Zet, and GK after realising their mistake in picking up the summoning key first.
They do this by flying the Icarus back to TG from Alcatraz after Zet to kill Ultimis Richtofen and refracture the universe. 
They then have a second crack at DE, Zet and GK like we see in the Origins recap. 
Ending in Richtofen "going the extra mile" as Dempsy says and sacrificing himself like we see in the final shot of the Origins Recap.

Or the inverse being the music videos and recap happen first and then our gameplay/cutscenes are the second attempt.
Meaning we overwrote the good ending we see in the videos with our ingame actions.


 

[clueless]

I disagree with the possibility that Primis managed to fly Icarus but do not dismiss it, simply due to the concept that Primis never had access to Icarus due to them going to ZnS simply for the blood in Richtofen's Lab which is completely outside the prison in general. Even in the broken cycle there's no access to Icarus, nor mention of it. I think they simply hopped through portals and Monty wasn't able to watch everything, or he did and played along to keep perpetuating the Cycle.

[Rapt]

Dempsey: "You took us on a little whistle stop tour of some other locations. Said we all needed the blood vials."
Surely this one quote dispells the notion that they only went to the lab?

Ofc it's not confirmed it was Primis who flew Icarus..! That's just a possibility like you say.

On 8/31/2020 at 8:50 PM, clueless said:

Primis never had access to Icarus due to them going to ZnS simply for the blood in Richtofen's Lab

However, what you said here is not supported by the Dempsey quote from GK...
They went to multiple locations.

[clueless]

2 hours ago, Rapt said:

Dempsey: "You took us on a little whistle stop tour of some other locations. Said we all needed the blood vials."
Surely this one quote dispells the notion that they only went to the lab?

Ofc it's not confirmed it was Primis who flew Icarus..! That's just a possibility like you say.

However, what you said here is not supported by the Dempsey quote from GK...
They went to multiple locations.

I was unaware of this quote, thank you for changing my perspective!

[anonymous]

Okay, so I think the sudden memory loss of Primis after Richtofen's arrival at The Giant cannot be answered by plain '115-induced delusions', that's just too lazy. What we see is a trinity of Primis arriving at Der Riese, determined to make Ultimis Richtofen awaken the testsubjects and tell him not to open the teleporter (they know Primis Richtofen is behind it and what it will cause). When Ultimis Richtofen, stubborn bastard that he is, opens the teleporter nontheless and his Primis counterpart enters this dimension, the rest of Primis undergo a rapid change of mind and memory. They don't seem to remember why they were here, they distrust Richtofen but assist him on not awakening the testsubjects anyway (contrary to Primis' initial plan) and they suffer heavy memory loss. 

Quote

Dempsey: There was something I was gonna ask you, what was it?

Richtofen: Ah, dear Dempsey! Is your memory loss perhaps due to your prolonged exposure to Element 115? Or are you just one of the stupid Dempseys?

No this is not because of their exposure to Element 115. This is because the future is changed. Similar to Maxis in the House, who felt foreign to his own memory, exactly because his past was changed, and his old memories of a scourged Earth were replaced by new memories.

Quote

Maxis: Reality itself is shifting. I find myself reflecting on memories I am not longer sure are my own.

If this is the case for Primis, this means one important thing: They self are affected by the events of the future. Changing history wouldn't have any effect on their memories if all of Primis' actions and memories would age from before 1945 or exclusively in another dimension. This means that by killing Ultimis Richtofen, by changing the Original Timeline post-1945, certain events were changed that would directly or indirectly affect Primis' memories, if you get what I mean.

 

The odd thing is that before the Giant, we only know Primis from Origins, and they are believed to have entered the Original Dimension in 1943, as the Timeline states so and Dempsey strengthens this by asking Richtofen in the Giant "Why the hell he abandoned them for 2 years". However, keep in mind that (1) the Timeline is written according the Cycle, this changed future, and (2) Dempsey's memories are changed as well. So both arguments are no insurance that it is true that originally, if the future wasn't changed, Primis would be there since 1943. I'm thinking about the Icarus being crashed at Der Riese. Surely it could be the mobsters, but consider this cipher:

Quote

"It was a strange flight, the plane crashed. We passed through time and space, in a way, flying over areas that shouldn't have been there. Hmm, there was no sign of any remains. I do not know where it landed, honest."

To me, it doesn't seem like the mobsters or the Weasel would have any knowledge regarding changed time and space, so to me this sounds more like being written by either Primis Richtofen, or, more likely, Primis Nikolai.

 

And that's where the BO4 Spoilers get into play, Richkiller!

 

We're getting back on the idea that Primis arrive at The Giant via Icarus, from Blood of the Dead. They follow Nikolai's new plan: Securing Ultimis Richtofen and awaken the testsubjects.

Quote

"Tank" Dempsey: "Hey other me, if you're hearing this, then it means something's gone fubar. We're going to Plan B. Stick to that kraut bastard like glue. We need to find out what the hell he has been doing, what he's going to do. We may be able to get a fix on your location if you can trigger one of the paradox visualizations. Good luck, we're all counting on you.

The Primis radios being recorded at The Giant are, along with the map's intro cutscene, the only actual audio we have from Primis before their memories were being changed by changing the future. As their original plan was to keep Richtofen alive and make him awaken the testsubjects (and possibly also something to do with the weird Primis+U. Richtofen at the House), I'm pretty sure that "stick to that Kraut bastard" refers to Ultimis Richtofen.

 

So I believe that in another variant of BotD's outcome, between Blood of the Dead and the events of the Classified outro, Primis went to The Giant with Icarus. This would explain why Ultimis Richtofen is so cold-blooded and without any worry in the cage at Hangar 18: He knows what will happen because he carries the experienced soul of Zombie Richtofen.

[RichKiller]

7 hours ago, anonymous said:

Okay, so I think the sudden memory loss of Primis after Richtofen's arrival at The Giant cannot be answered by plain '115-induced delusions', that's just too lazy. What we see is a trinity of Primis arriving at Der Riese, determined to make Ultimis Richtofen awaken the testsubjects and tell him not to open the teleporter (they know Primis Richtofen is behind it and what it will cause). When Ultimis Richtofen, stubborn bastard that he is, opens the teleporter nontheless and his Primis counterpart enters this dimension, the rest of Primis undergo a rapid change of mind and memory. They don't seem to remember why they were here, they distrust Richtofen but assist him on not awakening the testsubjects anyway (contrary to Primis' initial plan) and they suffer heavy memory loss. 

No this is not because of their exposure to Element 115. This is because the future is changed. Similar to Maxis in the House, who felt foreign to his own memory, exactly because his past was changed, and his old memories of a scourged Earth were replaced by new memories.

If this is the case for Primis, this means one important thing: They self are affected by the events of the future. Changing history wouldn't have any effect on their memories if all of Primis' actions and memories would age from before 1945 or exclusively in another dimension. This means that by killing Ultimis Richtofen, by changing the Original Timeline post-1945, certain events were changed that would directly or indirectly affect Primis' memories, if you get what I mean.

 

The odd thing is that before the Giant, we only know Primis from Origins, and they are believed to have entered the Original Dimension in 1943, as the Timeline states so and Dempsey strengthens this by asking Richtofen in the Giant "Why the hell he abandoned them for 2 years". However, keep in mind that (1) the Timeline is written according the Cycle, this changed future, and (2) Dempsey's memories are changed as well. So both arguments are no insurance that it is true that originally, if the future wasn't changed, Primis would be there since 1943. I'm thinking about the Icarus being crashed at Der Riese. Surely it could be the mobsters, but consider this cipher:

To me, it doesn't seem like the mobsters or the Weasel would have any knowledge regarding changed time and space, so to me this sounds more like being written by either Primis Richtofen, or, more likely, Primis Nikolai.

 

And that's where the BO4 Spoilers get into play, Richkiller!

 

We're getting back on the idea that Primis arrive at The Giant via Icarus, from Blood of the Dead. They follow Nikolai's new plan: Securing Ultimis Richtofen and awaken the testsubjects.

The Primis radios being recorded at The Giant are, along with the map's intro cutscene, the only actual audio we have from Primis before their memories were being changed by changing the future. As their original plan was to keep Richtofen alive and make him awaken the testsubjects (and possibly also something to do with the weird Primis+U. Richtofen at the House), I'm pretty sure that "stick to that Kraut bastard" refers to Ultimis Richtofen.

 

So I believe that in another variant of BotD's outcome, between Blood of the Dead and the events of the Classified outro, Primis went to The Giant with Icarus. This would explain why Ultimis Richtofen is so cold-blooded and without any worry in the cage at Hangar 18: He knows what will happen because he carries the experienced soul of Zombie Richtofen.

Let me start by saying that as you said, the memory problems is a good reason as to the confusion that arises, but there something I find more confusing, which is the different ideologies and motives each character has. Different characters are driven by different senses of purpose, and every character is sure they're going in the path of truth, but eventually every character is wrong in its own ways. Gladly there is one unbiased source of truth, which is Treyarch's red herrings. 

 

I agree with quite a few stuff here but there's some stuff I want to shed light on and tackle a few of the stuff you said: 

 

the kaurt Dempsey refers to is seemingly Primis Richtofen:

Quote

Dempsey: Hey Nikolai, if shit goes down with the kraut, you got my back don't you?
Nikolai: I hope to never see the day we turn on each other.

 

As to the following cipher:

 

Quote

"It was a strange flight, the plane crashed. We passed through time and space, in a way, flying over areas that shouldn't have been there. Hmm, there was no sign of any remains. I do not know where it landed, honest."

It ended up being the Zulu language. From what I've checked the respective word to "remains" matches "remnants" much better. So you end up with: 

Quote

"There was no sign of any remnants. I do not know where it landed, honest."

This suggests that whoever was on board and the plane did not arrive to the same location. Furthermore, Icarus in The Giant had a clean land and it didn't quite crash. I do agree on the plane delivering the Primis crew though, but I don't think this cipher is about Primis. Without getting into too much detail, I tend to think this cipher was written by Brock and Gary from the Agonia fracture.

 

 

 

Quote

The Primis radios being recorded at The Giant

Not all the radios were recorded on The Giant. 
 

Quote

"Takeo... Takeo... Brave upholder of the dying samurai spirit. It feels almost as though I am speaking to my ancestors; instead, I speak to a reflection of myself. The man in the mirror, in another place, another time, our allies are filled with confidence and bravado. But I am troubled. My dreams are haunted by a man in shadow. I fear this vision may be a portent of our destruction."

 

 

Quote

They follow Nikolai's new plan: Securing Ultimis Richtofen and awaken the testsubjects.

 

While I agree that's Nikolai's plan going forward more or less, I don't think it's plan B, but rather plan A.
You can tell Primis have a plan when arriving in June 4th (a plan which they forget by the time they get to BoTD):

 

 

The Dempsey radio highlights the fact that they do not trust Richtofen no longer. Their new plan is to find Primis Richtofen: where he was, and where he will be (all thanks to the beacon)

Quote

We're going to Plan B. Stick to that kraut bastard like glue. We need to find out what the hell he has been doing, what he's going to do.

The crew arrives in June 4th to the same exact place that the timeline marks as the beginning of Primis Richtofen's journey.
However Primis Richtofen seems to slip away from Primis' hands and he gets to the house. They know he was there at that time, but they don't know what was going on between that point and their future meeting in The Giant (hence the question "where have you been in the last two years" with the answer "I have traveled, I have  many futures many histories" etc.). 

 

Quote

The Primis radios being recorded at The Giant are, along with the map's intro cutscene, the only actual audio we have from Primis before their memories were being changed by changing the future.

Their memory loss seems to be a process, there are quite a few quotes suggesting that they know why they are there but they're slowly forgetting (Dempsey even starts to forget what happened in the TG intro as he forgets what to ask Primis Richtofen). 

 

I think the above was partial analysis of Dempsey radio lol. I also think that some of the confusion you have comes from the assumption Primis visits Alcatraz only once. However, in the comics, Primis Richtofen does not show up in the portal, but rather the guy with the hat in the middle, which appears to be Ultimis Richtofen by the other loading screen (I think we already agree on Ultimis Richtofen being with Primis prior to TG, as quotes suggest). 

 

 

[clueless]

Something else I entirely forgot about, Primis seems to just forget Nicest Richtofen is bleeding to death after GW Richtofen uses the Mirgalak lu Korhohosha, despite shouting out and trying to pry Nicest Richtofen free when he willingly jumps in the Dark Mechanism.